Environment Committee on March 27th, 2018

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Deb Schulte]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Duncan.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

It's terrific to have you here again, Commissioner.

Thank you, Madam Leach. What a task. This is historic. We appreciate the effort. You've been pretty clear on where we've gone astray and what needs to happen. I appreciate particularly this report, on the heels of the report you tabled last fall in which you specifically pointed out problems at the federal level.

Is it not true, Madam Commissioner, that it is the federal government that would be held accountable at the international level for meeting the commitments we made at Paris to meet the 1.5 degrees centigrade?

[Julie Gelfand]

I believe so, yes.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

This mechanism of the pan-Canadian framework, then, is a sort of strategy, but it is ultimately the federal government that is going to have to be accountable for what happens.

The trajectory you're showing is not reassuring. It's troubling that each successive government just keeps dispensing with the reduction targets they set. The Conservative government dispensed with the initial targets, the Kyoto targets, and then the Copenhagen targets. Now this government has unilaterally decided that we're not going to meet the 2020 target.

This gives cause for concern, because we have been making these international commitments and then just unilaterally deciding that, oh well, we'll work towards 2030. Is it not true that we are also committed to be reporting on where we are in 2020?

[Julie Gelfand]

It is my understanding that we are to report on where we are in 2020. In the audit we tabled in the fall, we indicated clearly that the Government of Canada seemed to no longer be talking about 2020 and only talking about the 2030 target, which we indicated was pushing the ball further along the path and rendering the target more difficult. It will be more difficult to reach 500-odd megatonnes than it was to reach the 2020 target.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you.

I'm deeply concerned that the targets are not also reflecting the actual emissions. I give by way of example the concerns being addressed by a lot of technically qualified people that the methane emissions are being grossly under-reported. It may well be that in those jurisdictions where we have substantial methane emissions, particularly from the oil and gas sector, the emissions are going to be substantially greater than what we are reported to be going to reduce.

[Julie Gelfand]

In our report, you'll note that there were at least two jurisdictions, maybe three, that had difficulty with the federal emission numbers, and they either used their own numbers or replaced them, or provided additional information to the federal government.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Okay, that is true. I know that Alberta has said it will reduce 40% or something, I think, of methane emissions, but it's well known that this is based on under-reporting, and it's not even actually monitoring yet.

You raised last fall a really important matter. It goes to your overall issue about accountability.

I and a number of people in Canada have been following what the U.K. and Germany have done. The United Kingdom actually enacted in law its targets. I think that every five years it sets another percentage reduction target. It has established an independent commission, headed by a former Edmontonian, that advises on how to meet the next round of targets, and then audits and publicly reports.

Would you want to speak to whether that kind of mechanism at the federal level might help us better track what is going on federally, and then additionally provincially and territorially?

[Julie Gelfand]

I believe you're correct about everything you said about the U.K. We found that some provinces had enacted in law their targets, and the New Brunswick auditor general made the recommendation that the targets for New Brunswick should be enacted in law.

I believe it would be the job of parliamentarians to make the call whether or not we need a commission and what it could do. Yes, then, that's a job for parliamentarians to do.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Okay. Thank you.

I will give Mr. Cannings a chance. How many minutes does he have?

[The Chair, Liberal, Deb Schulte]

We're at just under a minute and a half.

Go ahead.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

This may be beyond your remit. I offer my apologies, if it is.

I'm just listening to the conversation here about the pan-Canadian framework. You mentioned that it was one of the best plans we've had, and yet it's a difficult thing in a federation. It's like herding cats, when you have federal goals and then a lot of those are put off onto the provinces.

I don't want you to get into policy or anything, but could you comment broadly on areas where the federal government would best have tackled those types of reductions or taken those actions, rather than putting them onto the provinces?

One example that comes to my mind is the ecoENERGY retrofit program, which was so successful here federally and yet was passed off to the provinces, only a couple of which have picked it up.

[Julie Gelfand]

Unfortunately, we did not really look at the issue of where it would be best suited. That's a decision the government has to make, and then we audit against their commitment. If the governments suggest that we're going to have cap and trade, then we audit against the cap and trade. We can't audit against something that they haven't set.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

So....

[Julie Gelfand]

We can't look at that. We can't comment on it, unfortunately.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

I was just thinking about whether, after doing all this, you had any ideas about—

[Julie Gelfand]

I can say that herding provinces and herding auditors general....

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Liberal, Deb Schulte]

I'm going to have to cut it off there, because we have to go to vote.

You've been so kind. Thank you, Commissioner, for offering to stay until 12:30 to accommodate this situation. I think that's true for Ms. Leach as well. We thank you very much. If you could be patient while we go to vote, we'll be back.

I will suspend right now. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Deb Schulte]

We're going to resume.

We're back to questioning, and Mr. Amos was next up.

[William Amos, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to Ms. Leach and Commissioner Gelfand. All of the work that has gone into this is much appreciated. I can only imagine what a Herculean task it was to bring together so many provincial and territorial auditors.

I'd like to ask what future there is for more collaboration. It seems to me that this is a fabulous development in accountability and auditing for the country. It's a big country, and we want to know that the best possible work to hold our governments accountable is being done. It would appear that this is really ground-breaking stuff, and I'd love to know what can be done to push the envelope further.

I put that to you now.

[Julie Gelfand]

Auditors general have an association, the Canadian Council of Legislative Auditors. They meet a couple of times a year, both on financial issues and on value-for-money audits.

It was a result of the leadership of the auditors general; they actually asked whether or not we could work on something collaboratively. I don't think anybody expected that we'd get everybody in the tent on such a big piece of work, on climate change.

I think that encouraging auditors general to do more collaboration is something that parliamentarians can do. It would require us to think of new ways of doing things. We aren't actually resourced in that way, properly, to do more collaboration, but I think it is the way of the future.

Auditors general are discussing this, and we can see, particularly in the area of environment and sustainable development, many opportunities to do collaborative work. There could also be collaborative work done on other files—aboriginal peoples, for example, or health care. There's a lot of work that could be done collaboratively; it's really over to the auditors general, who are all independent agents of parliaments, to make that call.

[William Amos, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

Thank you for that response. I will simply seize the opportunity, then, to encourage your office to pursue every avenue for future collaboration.

Consider this a call-out to auditors general across the country. Thank you for your work, and please continue to find more and more ways to collaborate. I think it's a great direction.

[Julie Gelfand]

Thank you.