Environment Committee on April 19th, 2018

[Lisa Mitchell]

I'll ask Mr. Butler to comment as well, but we will see, for many of the designated activities.... Again, we don't know what the designated activities will be, so this is a bit of an open question. I think particularly relevant when it comes to the offshore is that we don't know if exploratory drilling will be included. We don't know if seismic surveys will be included. We presume production drilling would be included, but we don't know any of that at this stage.

We do know that the only way the projects can be assessed is by a review panel. That indicates to us that there will be a very narrow set of projects assessed. We would like to see projects that would not necessarily fall into that level, if you will, still being assessed by the impact assessment agency.

Maybe Mr. Butler can comment, as well.

[Mark Butler]

I'm not an EA expert. Our attention in Nova Scotia has more focus on what this means for other industries out there, such as the fishing industry or the tourism industry, or even some of the new industries that are coming along, like tidal and offshore wind. We recently, I think you might.... For Beothuk Energy, there was a proposal for an over-$1 billion offshore wind project, which is particularly exciting for the region.

Certainly in Nova Scotia—I think we've heard less from Newfoundland—the fishing industry is concerned about the implications of some of these changes and what they might mean for protecting their industry and their competitiveness.

[The Chair, Liberal, Deb Schulte]

Thank you very much.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

The other—

[The Chair, Liberal, Deb Schulte]

No, sorry, MP Rogers. You have six minutes and then you are done. It goes really quickly, I know.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

I'm sorry. My apologies.

[The Chair, Liberal, Deb Schulte]

Thank you.

Mr. Sopuck, go ahead please.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Thank you.

Dr. Collins, we had testimony from Chris Bloomer, head of the Canadian Energy Pipeline Association. He described Canada's regulatory environment as “toxic”—a very definitive word. A toxin is a poison.

As a result of the environment we have now, foreign direct investment in Canada has been estimated as going from $71.5 billion in 2013 down 56% to $31.5 billion in 2017. As well, a 2017 study ranked Canada 16th out of 17 countries for business investment, compared with eighth place for the period 2009 to 2014. I'll leave it to people to look at their calendars to realize who was in government at that time.

Do you see this decline, Dr. Collins, in investor confidence continuing or even accelerating if the IAA is passed and implemented?

[Colleen Collins]

I think the issue is not with the impact assessments themselves.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Exactly.

[Colleen Collins]

Industry wants impact assessments. It wants them well defined.

The issue is indeterminate timing, decisions that are politically motivated that happen at two points in the process rather than at one. That just creates greater and greater uncertainty.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Yes, I agree.

Having done pipeline assessments, myself, in the Mackenzie Valley, I know that process basically lasted 20 years and ended up with no pipeline.

Mr. Kenyon, in a very short sentence, maybe one word, are you in the Pembina Institute opposed to the Trans Mountain pipeline?

[Duncan Kenyon]

I'm not going to answer that with one word, I'm sorry. It's a complex project. It needs more than just one word.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Okay.

Many in the activist community have rallied against it. We see colleagues being arrested because of their unlawful activities, and so on. One of the things the activist community is saying is that there's not enough consultation, and all of that.

We had very interesting testimony from Chief Ernie Crey of the Cheam First Nation. He talked about there being “43 First Nations that have mutual benefit agreements with Trans Mountain—reportedly worth more than $300 million—that offer skills training for employment, business and procurement opportunities and improvements to local infrastructure.”

Are those mutual benefit agreements good things in your mind, Mr. Kenyon, when they provide revenue and training opportunities?

[Duncan Kenyon]

I think the social issues that our first nations are facing are huge barriers and huge issues, and I would strongly support a country and government and others to address those issues.

I think specifically, projects like pipelines or other types of industrial activities, when designed right, can help with that. But I think there is a whole larger and much more significant suite of issues that need to be addressed.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

I would let Chief Crey speak for himself. I wouldn't dream of interpreting what he said. I'm reporting what he said: the enthusiasm among his people, his constituents, and their anxiousness to get to work are real and specific needs and wants that his community is seeking. He had a deep understanding as well of foreign direct investment, and I was very impressed with his knowledge of the entire Canadian economy and what it means for first nations like his to participate fully.

Mr. Kenyon, I spent time in the oil sands myself, doing environmental assessment work on the Kearl project. I assume you've been to the oil sands many times. Do you ultimately want to see oil development and the oil sands phased out?

Andrew Weaver, the head of the Green Party, sent out a note yesterday saying that he would like to see the oil sands phased out. Is that your view?

[Duncan Kenyon]

No. The Pembina Institute is a clean energy organization that believes we have to develop all our resources responsibly. That's both oil sands, and oil and gas, but also our renewable resources.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Do you think the oil sands are being done responsibly?

[Duncan Kenyon]

I think it's not the case. I think we have a lot of work still to do in the oil sands.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

I disagree strongly. I did an environmental assessment there, and the technology that is being applied is remarkable.

Mr. Kenyon again, do you support a transition to a renewable energy economy?

[Duncan Kenyon]

I support a transition to a diverse energy economy.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

I would presume that the renewable sector would have an increasing role to play over time?

[Duncan Kenyon]

I strongly believe that the market will determine more where the energy sector goes. I think that's the fundamental issue we're facing in this country that we haven't yet woken up to, that market forces are going to impact our existing energy industry, but what's coming down the road could dramatically change what is possible for this country.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Coming from a renewable energy province myself, Manitoba is one of the leaders in hydroelectricity, it's interesting, many proponents of renewable energy don't realize how long it will take.

A study by the International Energy Agency, new policies scenario, 2017, showed that in 24 years of effort and work, from 2016 to 2040, there will be just a 6% increase in renewable energy, so we have a long way to go on that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Deb Schulte]

Mr. Sopuck, I have to cut you off, unfortunately.