Environment Committee on May 17th, 2016

[Kate Lindsay]

Exactly. It has wetland classification, etc. This information is used in our long-term forest management planning. Often there is a 20- to 50-year plan for what forest type will be harvested and how it will be harvested sequentially, and then to set out the regeneration silvicultural practices, meaning the species that are planted to regenerate promptly after harvest.

Also, multiple expertise goes into a forest management plan. I'm a biologist, so I would go in pre-harvest and plan to identify areas for retention, whether they're for species or for water or for different constraints on the land base. That's through provincial forest management regulations as well as certification.

Then there are the voluntary collaborative initiatives we're taking on to do a broader holistic approach to land use planning and conservation planning.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Thank you.

To Aran O'Carroll, I'm not sure whether it was you or your partner who mentioned that goals with policy, not science, create a problem. Do you want to elaborate on that?

[Aran O'Carroll]

Ms. Lisgo was explaining the science-based approach that we're using to analyze the status of the protected areas network across Canada's boreal and to identify potential new conservation areas. Her point was that in the CBFA, we're committed to a science-based, science-informed approach to identifying priorities for newly protected areas.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

We're sort of in the world of policy, so if you say that policy leads to bad decisions, what are you telling us?

[Aran O'Carroll]

We didn't mean to besmirch the policy process. We're just talking about the critical importance of science to inform implementation of policy objectives.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Good. I think that's the point, because when we got to West Coast Environmental, they were talking about going in a hurry, and I get a little reticent when somebody wants us to go in a hurry, get policy, and implement things. I say, “Where's the science? Let's take the time.” When you say to go in a hurry, I get a little nervous about that when you say policy can lead to bad decisions if it's not science-based. The science has got to be important here, right? West Coast?

[Linda Nowlan]

Yes, the science is incredibly important. There's no doubt about it whatsoever. What I was saying is that there has been a lot, a lot, a lot of science done in the marine field identifying important areas that are worthy of protection, and we can go fast by speeding up the designation, because the science is there.

For these zones I was talking about [Technical difficulty—Editor]the science data collected, and using tools such as Marxan and Seasketch, you can zone in and out and see that you're protecting, for example, over 50% of eelgrass, which is needed for salmon beds. The science base is there in a lot of places.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

I think that's the challenge. The science is there in a lot of places, so when you develop policy, how do you relate the policy to science in a lot of different places? That's the challenge.

When you refer to policy, the policy I think you're referring to in the science-based decisions creates a problem because there's lots of science-based knowledge out there in pieces. We've talked a number of times about a holistic approach, and I think that's what mining industries are moving to, right? Are you using a more holistic approach to dealing with your operations, your business?

[The Chair, Liberal, Deb Schulte]

You have 45 seconds.

[Ben Chalmers]

Yes, I think that's absolutely right, and part of our Towards Sustainable Mining initiative is to take a broad look at all of the key issues, whether they are environmental or social, and measure performance in each of those areas.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Good.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Deb Schulte]

Thank you.

Mr. Amos is next.

[William Amos, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

Thanks to all our witnesses. It's a pleasure to have you with us. I apologize for the delays.

My first question goes to Ms. Nowlan at West Coast.

Your presentation and your written brief focused on marine protected areas, but you don't mention marine conservation areas, which are within the purview of Environment Canada.

Do you have submissions to make with regard to the marine conservation area aspect?

[Linda Nowlan]

Yes, it wasn't covered in the brief. You're right. The brief focused more on the Oceans Act marine protected areas.

A national marine conservation area is a really important tool. As you know, the southern Strait of Georgia proposed NMCA is under way, and it could move more quickly toward designation. It's a complicated place near a lot of populations and with a lot of overlapping indigenous territories, but it's a very important tool.

I would like to point out that I think we need stronger timelines in that act as well, or in regulations or policy. We have Gwaii Haanas, which is an amazing area, but actually only 3% of that large area is protected right now. There's a committee working on a management plan to try to increase that level of protection. The Haida are saying that at least 30% and probably more like 50% of Gwaii Haanas NMCA should be protected. The act doesn't give us much guidance in that regard.

[William Amos, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

Thanks for that.

I would invite further written comments. Since you have extensive written comments on the MPA aspect, if you'd like to make further written comments on the NMCA aspect, we would welcome that. I mentioned that to all of our other witnesses, and it applies to those who may be reading the transcript as well.

To go to the issue of legislative tools that make up what I call the wardrobe of federal mechanisms that enable protection, we have a whole series of them that are related to marine protection and even more of them for land. I think one of the motivating factors behind this study was an evaluation of the state of the wardrobe. I think the reason Mr. O'Carroll and other witnesses are correct in saying that we have to adopt a consultative approach is that we know there will be different circumstances in different parts of the country. Ms. Nowlan, with respect, it is very difficult to do things very quickly and all at once, because you're dealing with a whole bunch of different wardrobe items.

I wonder if our witnesses could comment on whether they feel we have the wardrobe items or the legal tools in the box that are necessary to achieve the kind of large-scale conservation advances that we want to achieve, or do we need some different approaches? We're in a kind of contemplative mode of looking at whether we have all the tools we need and whether we need to be inventing different ones.

[Aran O'Carroll]

I'll make a quick response to that.

Thinking about the federal wardrobe, we need to pull together to achieve these ambitious targets. One of the challenges is that the wardrobe is very diverse and siloed. We have federal departments with partial responsibility, arguably, towards these objectives. There's not as much collaboration inside the federal government as is needed for us all to be pulling in the same direction.

I don't know whether anyone else wants to comment.

[Kate Lindsay]

I would.

Mr. Amos, I agree that there are a lot of tools.

To build on Aran's point as well, a lot of the terrestrial conservation objectives are a shared responsibility between different governments. What I would like to see is a more coordinated approach to what is being approved. Forestry, for the most part, is approved by the provincial government. There could be a more coordinated approach in species management in what the province is doing and what the federal government is mandating or asking for through federal recovery strategies.

Ben touched on it as well. One of the key missing policy suites of tools is under SARA. Within the current act, there are tools such as conservation agreements and permitting tools. We could have more guidance from Environment Canada on the development of those and how those might be implemented. We're definitely willing to work on them. There are some willing proponents who want to invest resources in the best way possible.

There are also opportunities to look at what other jurisdictions are doing. For instance, Australia is looking at a kind of threat management approach. Where there is a piece of geography with multiple species at risk listed, they work in a coordinated fashion to find recovery efforts that would benefit multiple species. It's a move towards a multi-species, area-based approach and it utilizes some of the flexible tools, such as conservation agreements and stewardship initiatives, that I know the forest industry would be happy to work towards.

[The Chair, Liberal, Deb Schulte]

I know Mr. Browne wanted to say something.

You have just a few seconds.

[David Browne, Director of Conservation, Canadian Wildlife Federation]

This is where the federal government could, with the departments, lay out a framework—essentially a protected areas policy framework—specifying how these tools should work together. I don't believe how the tools should work together is clearly laid out, or which tools apply to which types of conservation goals or how the departments should use them. That's the kind of leadership that Parliament and the government can take and direct the departments with.

[The Chair, Liberal, Deb Schulte]

Thank you.

We'll go over to Mr. Eglinski.

[Jim Eglinski, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses who are here today.

I'd like to start with Ben Chalmers of the Mining Association of Canada.

If my information is correct, I believe the mining association probably employs one of the largest numbers of indigenous people in Canada. In my own experience in my riding of Yellowhead, where there are several mines, I had the good fortune for two years to drive a bus and take miners back and forth, and we used to have a lot of conversations on conservation. The largest elk herd in British Columbia is located on the Coal Valley Resources mine. They work quite closely with the aboriginal community in the area to protect the animals there, to make it a better environment, and they've adapted very well to the environment of working machinery and mining.

We'll go on next door to Teck Coal, which has one of largest sheep herds. They wander among the working employees. They love to sit on the side of the hills that have been the tailings, for example.

I wonder if you could highlight other examples like that. In my riding I could give you a lot, but I wonder if you could highlight some of your other experiences in Canada.

[Ben Chalmers]

Sure. Again, from my own experience at the Myra Falls mine that I worked at, we used to keep track of the Roosevelt elk, which often would hang around the mine site because it was easy for them to see predators.

It goes back to one of the points I made in my remarks that when you look at a mine site, it has usually a fairly large holding of land that is often undisturbed around the active mine site, and so, in our view, there are real possibilities around making use of some of the tools that we discussed today, like conservation agreements and CEAA decision statements.

There is also, as you pointed out, our relationship with aboriginal communities. We have more agreements signed with aboriginal communities in Canada than any other industry and in any other country, and many of those agreements are increasingly building in environmental stewardship elements. Just the other day I was up at the Red Chris mine in northwest B.C., and they were in the process of hiring, from the Tahltan, someone who would be reporting to both the mine and the Tahltan leadership, and who would be responsible for doing environmental monitoring around the mine site. There are a number of really innovative and interesting things that our industry is doing.

There was another example around a closed mine that was brought up earlier. I referred to bats in my remarks. There is some really interesting work in the interior of B.C. where some old, abandoned mining adits have been turned into bat habitat to help some of the bat species that are recovering.

[Jim Eglinski, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Do I still have time, Madam Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Deb Schulte]

You have two minutes.

[Jim Eglinski, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Okay. I'll go to the forest products and Kate Lindsay.

Kate, on SARA, when I read through the act—