Environment Committee on Sept. 29th, 2016

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

First I'd like to ask a question of Mr. Taylor.

You mentioned that when establishing protected areas in the Arctic, Inuit rights need to be taken into account right up front. You suggested that fishing and hunting rights need to be fully protected, but you would exclude industrial fishing and resource development from the management rights that the Inuit would have, correct?

[Trevor Taylor]

No, I didn't say resource development; I said mineral development.

I don't remember the exact words now, but I said mineral development, seabed mining, seismic testing, and industrial-scale fishing. We do believe that in the core key habitat areas of the Canadian Arctic—and for that matter, anywhere—if there is a core area that is absolutely essential to the ongoing ecological and biological productivity of the ecosystem, these things cannot happen there.

There are areas where industrial fishing and seismic hydrocarbon development and mining can take place, but there are some areas where they can't, and we need to recognize that.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Then have you consulted with Inuit on that kind of approach, and do they generally support those particular areas being excluded from their area of management?

[Trevor Taylor]

I'll reiterate another point to clarify here, just so the member understands.

To be clear, Oceans North does not represent Inuit, nor do we speak on their behalf. We are advocating what we believe should be the principles governing and guiding this process. We are advocating that the federal government, in conjunction with Inuit, establish these areas. We're not saying this is the way it should be; we're saying this is our view of how it should be.

Have we consulted with Inuit? We work closely with Inuit. We haven't taken the government's mandate away from them yet, nor do we plan on it. It's the federal government's mandate to consult with Inuit on how this should unfold.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

I suspect that as these land claims move forward towards final settlement—

[Trevor Taylor]

I think they're settled, but anyway, carry on.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Right now, do Inuit have the rights over the lands that are covered by their settlement areas?

[Trevor Taylor]

To varying degrees, yes. In some areas, they have total control, and in some areas they have advisory roles.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Some of those territorial areas would be subject to protection.

[Trevor Taylor]

Yes.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

If, in fact, the Inuit have control over or significant say in the development of their resources within those areas, will it then require the government to repatriate some of those powers in order to achieve your goal, which is to ensure that no mineral development, seismic activity, or industrial fishing takes place in those areas?

[Trevor Taylor]

If the Inuit decide there is an area they want protected that is of critical importance to their culture and to the ecology of the surrounding area, and they believe there is something wrong, that's a discussion they will have to have with the federal government.

Having said that, I am not aware of any area where this is an issue. There was an issue in the area just outside of Lancaster Sound among some environmental organizations, the federal government, and the private sector, but that issue was resolved some months ago when Shell's leases—maybe leases, maybe not—were withdrawn. I am not aware of any other.

I could be wrong, Mr. Fast. I'm sorry.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Thank you. That's very helpful.

Mr. Crowley, along the same lines, you mentioned that oil and gas development should be completely, absolutely excluded from protected areas. Again, right now the paradigm is quite different, since preference is given to the development of oil and gas above conservation objectives. I think that's what you said.

If you are going to reverse that paradigm to where oil and gas aren't in play anymore, that will require buy-in from our Inuit people. Would you agree?

[Paul Crowley]

No. I would disagree with that.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Could you clarify that? Why do you disagree?

[Paul Crowley]

The Inuit do not hold rights to the subsea; therefore, the benefits they would receive from that are certainly not clear. They are currently wrapped up in what would be—at this point, under legislation—secret negotiations held by the Government of Canada with the company for benefits. It is not something the Inuit directly participate in. They do not get—and will not get, under the current regime—any direct benefit from that oil and gas development. They bear all the risk, without any of the benefit.

In this case, it's all held by the Government of Canada. The territorial government—I'll speak for Nunavut, which I know best—does not hold any of those rights.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

At some point in time, the government is going to have to make a decision and say, “Listen, oil and gas is a no go in these protected areas.”

Do you not agree that there is going to have to be some level of Inuit buy-in to that kind of an approach? If you agree with me, has that buy-in discussion started? Do you suspect it will take place?

[The Chair, Liberal, Deb Schulte]

Please answer very quickly.

[Paul Crowley]

I can answer quickly.

Because of all the risk being borne by the Inuit, I think it would be a fairly quick discussion. I give the example of the community of Clyde River, which is going to be in the Supreme Court of Canada contesting the seismic program that they believe was going to be harmful to their community, again without sufficient benefit coming.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Deb Schulte]

Mr. Stetski, go ahead.

[Wayne Stetski, NDP, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Thank you.

I'll give you a bit of background. I was born in Churchill, Manitoba. I started school in Chesterfield Inlet, up in the Northwest Territories. I won't try to pronounce the names you have on the map here.

I had the pleasure of speaking at a conference in Inuvik during the Muskrat Jamboree. I went back for seconds of Arctic char and caribou at their community dinner. I did not go back for seconds of muskrat.

I put that out there because I do have a personal interest in the Arctic and in conservation in the Arctic. During our travels so far, we have met with a lot of indigenous people in the south here, many of whom expressed a sincere interest in seeing new areas protected, perhaps as indigenous protected areas with a different future from what has been seen in the past.

I know you don't speak for the Inuit, but I would like to ask all three of you whether you have a sense that there is support for protected areas in the Arctic. As well, what are the most important things we could do to gain the confidence of the Inuit that we do share common objectives around protected areas moving forward?

Perhaps we can start with Mr. Taylor.

[Trevor Taylor]

I think there is broad support for protection in protected areas at the community level. I think the closer you get to the people who live off the land and off the sea, the greater the commitment to conservation, sustainable use, and protection.

I jokingly say we're affiliated with Ducks Unlimited; it's a great conservation organization. I like working for a conservation organization that wants to preserve stuff so we can hunt it. I think it's fair to say that the approach to conservation—and again I don't speak for Inuit—is to protect it so that they'll be able to sustainably use it indefinitely. I think the closer you get to those people who are still involved in a traditional lifestyle, the greater that commitment to protection, and they would like to see protected areas.

There's been a strong commitment to protecting the area at the top of Foxe Basin in the area around Igloolik and Hall Beach, both prior to the proposed Mary River shipping corridor and during the discussion around what was going to be the southern route for ore shipment out of Baffin Island. It fell apart. They wanted a marine protected area and DFO wanted to establish a marine protected area and everybody was on the same page, but it fell apart over impact and benefit agreement negotiations. It was an inability to bring it together, essentially, on the dollar. If you could make a strong observation on that, I think it would be helpful. Paul already alluded to it.

What can be done? What can you do? What can the federal government do? The discussion has to move out of places like this and be more than a discussion among Paul Crowley, Trevor Taylor, Dave Miller, you guys, senior bureaucrats, and other politicos. It has to get out into the communities. People have to get over this fear of discussion with Inuit on marine protected areas. An Inuk in sealskin with a .30-06 strapped over his back is an imposing figure in February, but he isn't anything to be afraid of. They are a nice bunch of people. They are just as committed as anybody else is, but they need to be engaged, and my view is that they haven't been adequately engaged.

I think they would like to move faster than other people would. People are fearful because you hear some people talk about the need for development, and there is a need for development in the north, but I think some people are fearful of a backlash if you start talking about protected areas. I don't think there's anything to be afraid of, and the longer people don't talk to people in Igloolik and Hall Beach and wherever, the more difficult it's going to be to get this done.

[David Miller]

Thank you very much for the question, Mr. Stetski. I was just in Iqaluit. We hosted a clean energy summit there 10 days ago for the federal government, the private sector, a number of communities, the Nunavut government, and scientists. It was very successful.

As it happens, Mr. Crowley and I had a meeting with some of the Inuit organizations. We've been working there for a long time. As you all know, I'm from Toronto, and coming to Iqaluit and saying, “I'm from Toronto and I'm here to help you” is not the best way to start an evening.

Again, we also do not speak for Inuit people or organizations, but in our experience there is a very strong thread of support for conservation among Inuit people for the reasons that Mr. Taylor gave. It's been expressed by a number of their organizations, including the hunting and trapping organization. In our experience this extends to marine protected areas. In particular, there is a very significant concern about oil and gas exploration, particularly given issues like those with Shell. We were pleased to be part of their announcement when they withdrew from their permits in the Lancaster Sound vicinity, but it's clear to people there that there was significant damage just from initial exploration, particularly to fish and whales, and they are extremely concerned about it and about seismic testing. Of course they have seen no real development in that area.

That's our perspective. Mr. Crowley is far more experienced in the Arctic than I am, and he may have a more detailed answer, but in terms of the big picture, we found quite significant support. We're working with organizations and communities in a very positive way on marine protection and other environmental issues.

[Paul Crowley]

I've worked internationally—