Environment Committee on Oct. 4th, 2016

[The Chair, Liberal, Deb Schulte]

Yes, we can get that in writing.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

All right.

I have a question for Mr. Morel.

How does DFO work with other departments, agencies, or indigenous groups in the creation or management of a marine protected area? We've heard some commentary that DFO doesn't really have a great reputation when it comes to engaging with anyone outside of DFO. Is anything being done to change that culture? Do you think that's an accurate or an inaccurate statement?

[Philippe Morel]

I hope it's an inaccurate statement.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

I didn't get to go on the trip, but numerous people said that this was what they heard.

[Philippe Morel]

I can answer, and then I'll turn it over to Jeff, who has more experience than I do in the department.

Certainly, the plan that we have and the money we received in budget 2016 support an in-depth consultation and engagement of all stakeholders. We have the MPA network supported by that, to make sure that all stakeholders are involved in the consultations, and we also have some resources to support the consultation with indigenous groups.

Every step of a marine protected area, or eventually other measures we will implement, will be done through extensive consultation. We are putting in place a team that I am confident will have the appropriate resources to do consultations in the regions, and also with staff in NCR, to support that process. It is not something that we'll do in isolation.

[Jeff MacDonald, Director General, Oceans and Fisheries Policy, Department of Fisheries and Oceans]

To elaborate a bit on your question on how we go about establishing marine protected areas, in Sue's opening remarks she referred to broad policy frameworks that were established. For marine protected areas, that was in 2011, where the Canadian council of fisheries and aquaculture ministers approved the MPA network policy.

The work we've been doing in marine bioregions over the past five years has been based on that framework. It has involved provincial governments, territorial governments, as well as indigenous groups, and marine industries, including the fishing community, oil and gas, and the transport sector.

We have sometimes been accused of taking too long because our consultations are quite lengthy. It's a bit surprising to hear that people think we don't consult enough. In fact, we've been accused of the opposite as well.

The main point is, as Philippe said, it is extensive, in the sense that we need to consult in terms of identifying the conservation objectives for a marine protected area. Beyond that, once they are established, there is a management aspect, a planning aspect, to our approach, which involves identifying which human activities are compatible with the conservation objectives and which ones are not.

In those circumstances, it also involves a great deal of interaction with marine industries and the users of the oceans. That is how we go about this.

The network approach is one that is very useful, in the sense that it allows us to integrate the different tools that the departments here today have at their disposal through different legislative authorities. It also allows us to link sites ecologically, so that we actually are achieving a biodiversity outcome while using the appropriate tool for the conservation objectives that were identified network-wide and not just on a site-by-site basis.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Morel, for your information on Jordan Basin.

You may have said this, but I kind of missed it. There was a lot of information there. Do areas that are protected under the federal Fisheries Act count towards our Aichi targets?

[Philippe Morel]

Yes, they can, as “other measures”.

That's what we are defining, how “other measures” can contribute to the protection of marine areas. They're not necessarily designated under the Oceans Act, but fisheries closures, in some cases, can provide sufficient protection for the area so it can be counted as a protected area.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

It counts towards the targets.

[Philippe Morel]

Yes.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Okay. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Deb Schulte]

I just want to mention this. Mr. Eglinski and I were the only two in the room this morning when the commissioner tabled her reports. In her report, in some of her comments, she mentioned—because she did one on the fisheries—that you have a history of being a fairly siloed department. There are many different groups that are working across the country on different fisheries stocks.

When we were in Haida Gwaii, we heard a similar story. They were working—I'm trying to remember if it was herring—on trying to protect their stocks. There was a discussion between two separate areas. DFO was saying, “No, no, they're separate.” Haida was saying, “No, no, they cross-pollinate.”

I was pleased to hear that you're talking about improving the process of sharing of information, because it was mentioned this morning in the commissioner's report.

I don't normally talk, but I thought I'd throw that in.

Next up is Mr. Shields.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Madam Chair, what we heard out there was a lot more blunt than that: You may show up, but you do not listen and you had nobody there that could make any decisions. We heard that very bluntly. That was their side.

Going back, quality and quantity are important things to hear about when we talk about this. It's all right to sort of claim half the country, but if there's no quality in what you're claiming.... I think that was important as well.

I'll ride another horse that I've often mentioned, and that's municipalities. I think municipalities have quality in their protected areas. However, they never get included and you don't talk to them.

You mentioned that you're going to include them on that committee. That's great. I'm glad to see it. There are a lot of protected areas within municipalities that aren't accounted for, and I appreciate that.

I'll go back to capacity. I was listening very carefully to the question that was asked. I'm sitting here, and we have four guys, four departments sitting here—

[The Chair, Liberal, Deb Schulte]

My apologies for dropping—

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

I thought I had done something and was going to get shot.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

I've got your back.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

I think we heard in different situations the need for people who can actually make decisions to be there. If you're working together, and there are targets, but I think we still have a huge issue with silos. We don't have people at the senior level, and I'm talking deputy ministers, who are willing to say, “Let's get it done. We will take this decision. We will make sure it happens.” I think I'm still listening to siloed departments at a different level. I didn't hear anything when that question was asked that said, “We have the backing to get this done at the most senior level.” I mean deputy ministers saying, “Minister, we have to get this done.”

Do you want to respond to that?

[Philippe Morel]

I can tell you that my deputy minister asks me almost every day how we are advancing on the plan for a marine conservation target. She asks me this question because the minister asks her that question every day. I think the sense of urgency is very present in our department for the target of 2017 and 2020. We have a lot of work to do and we're under pressure. The change to the Fisheries Act will be necessary and the normal process to designate an MPA is about five years, and we have four years before meeting the target. At all levels of the department, we are being creative and focused on meeting those targets.

I engage also with the RDGs in the regions, because they have a role to play in talking to the stakeholders in every community where we envisage areas of interest to protect or conserve areas.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Then it comes to a question of capacity. Do you have the capacity? What we heard was there's a different body that shows up at every meeting, and there's no consistency whoever shows up. It's a different body. Somebody has gone this way. Somebody has transferred over there. There's a challenge in the sense of when you consult, it's a different person in the room every time. It's like if you came next time and we're having the same conversation, you have a different bias and context for that conversation. That's one of the challenges out there.

Is there going to be consistency at the senior level? Is there a commitment at the senior level in regard to who is going to be there six months from now, or a year from now, or long enough so that the context in conversations stays the same? That's a challenge out there. Is that a capacity issue? Do you have the capacity to keep consistency in the senior decision-makers at the table?

[Philippe Morel]

I think we built that consistency within the budget allocation in budget 2016. We built the capacity to have staff, both in the regions and in the national capital region to support a consultation process that is oriented on local and regional communities and stakeholders, but also having a national consistency in achieving the goals so it's not done in isolation. It's a challenge in a department like ours where 85% of staff is based regionally, but we have networks at different levels of management capable of delivering consistency, and I think it's working.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

That's one.

[Sue Milburn-Hopwood]

I can speak on behalf of Environment and Climate Change Canada. I speak to the deputy minister about this issue every time I meet with him. It's very much a live topic, and our minister speaks about this issue and this challenge on a very regular basis. I think it's very much a top-of-mind issue.

With respect to capacity and consistency, in the last year within Environment and Climate Change Canada we have elevated the Canadian wildlife service from being a directorate to being a branch with an ADM and three directors general. We are actually increasing the capacity to have senior-level discussions and presence at meetings.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Thank you.

[Rob Prosper]

At Parks Canada we have a unique perspective on the management of our sites. We have park management plans that are consulted on and then endorsed and signed by the minister. It sets the framework for what will happen in any given national park. This allows our superintendents to be active in decision-making. You don't have to be at the deputy level to have authority to make decisions. As long as the decisions are underneath the umbrella of those management plans, the superintendents have full authority to make decisions. So that's a benefit in our organization.

[The Chair, Liberal, Deb Schulte]

Thank you very much for sharing that.

Up next is Mr. Bossio.