Environment Committee on Nov. 24th, 2016

[Prof. Parisa A. Ariya]

I think having access to clean water and clean air is a human rights issue. In my mind it is already a given, but from a legislative point of view, you can reinforce the recommendation that you have. You already have a recommendation. We can use sustainable technologies, which have become cost-effective, particularly during the last 10 years. Many of them actually don't need any coal. You can run them with solar.

[Mike Bossio, Liberal, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Right.

[Prof. Parisa A. Ariya]

This is actually cleaner than even hydro electricity, which in some cases, in barrages produces mercury.

[Mike Bossio, Liberal, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Right.

[Prof. Parisa A. Ariya]

We have the know-how.

[Mike Bossio, Liberal, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Okay, thank you very much.

Moving on to Mr. McLinton. Would the Retail Council of Canada agree that it's important to know what chemicals exist within the retail products that we're purchasing?

[Jason McLinton]

To a degree, yes. What we're talking about when we talk about mandatory surveys, though, are not the prohibited substances, right? These are the everyday chemicals that are being used to manufacture all sorts of things.

[Mike Bossio, Liberal, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Going back to Ms. Ariya's testimony, we need to understand the combination these chemicals can create once they're built into a finished product. I agree with you that it shouldn't be the Retail Council's responsibility to make that determination, but manufacturers should ensure that any product that is coming into this country is manufactured to the same standard that we would expect our own manufacturers to meet as far as its chemical composition.

[Jason McLinton]

Absolutely. I couldn't have answered it better myself. That's exactly what I would have said. It's the manufacturers who would know how these products are made, right? Supply chains are incredibly complex, so the vendor that the retailer might deal with is almost never going to be the manufacturer. That might be several companies down the line.

[Mike Bossio, Liberal, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

If we found that a manufacturer wasn't answering the composition of the product survey, or if we discovered that a product didn't meet our standards, should that product be banned in the marketplace?

[Jason McLinton]

If it doesn't meet the Canadian standards, absolutely. I think the best way to get at that is through information sharing agreements between governments.

[Mike Bossio, Liberal, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Deb Schulte]

Thank you very much. That was a good answer.

Mr. Fast.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Thank you very much.

I'm going to go back to Professor Ariya. I'm very intrigued by the evidence you gave. Some of our discussion has been focused on bigger issues like climate change that don't necessarily inform our CEPA study directly. By the way, I do agree with you on cap and trade.

I would like to go back to Mr. Bossio's question, which was raised in previous panels, about the emergence of computational methodology to dramatically improve our ability to assess very large datasets. I'm not sure it necessarily directs us whether we should go to a hazard-based model or a risk-based model. I think a risk-based model can be dramatically improved as this methodology takes root. I would be interested to hear a little bit more about how computational methodology is going to improve our ability to get it right for Canadians, to improve the health and safety of Canadians.

[Prof. Parisa A. Ariya]

First of all, I hope the Canadian government at all levels communicates, for example, Environment Canada and Health Canada and their jurisdictions. More collaboration makes for more data sharing and often, to do any computation you need data. Many times, this data is obtained but because they are under different jurisdictions, the data are not maximized or integrated or treated properly. Putting more data in the larger public domain is the first thing that should be done.

There are different types of modelling and assessment. Risk assessments are computationally much simpler. You have different data, and this is not to be unkind. It's just from a mathematical process, it's simpler.

When we talk about, for example, air pollution or climate modelling, we're talking about the models they have, which all run based on the conservation of mass and energy. You have chemical reactions of various types. You have physical processes. You have radiation and so forth, that can run online, meaning numerically you can calculate all of them for this set-up for the different grids that we discuss, sub-units of calculation, that can be integrated.

We are normally geeks and we integrate the data that way, but for many of the other data that is used for policy, you use a dumber, slightly less sophisticated—

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

We're not talking about policy; we're talking about the assessment of substances—

[Prof. Parisa A. Ariya]

For the assessment.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

—and the application of computational methodology to that assessment.

[Prof. Parisa A. Ariya]

Yes. Again, methodology varies very significantly. Most involve simply weighing the different types of compounds, writing the effect of efficiency, putting the different impacts, and using factorial analysis for it. It's mostly factorial analysis in combination with the weighing of the data over a large dataset. That's the methodology that has been used.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Thank you.

Mr. McLinton, you are proposing to focus more on a voluntary as opposed to a mandatory survey process. To clarify, is the process that is currently used, mandatory or voluntary?

[Jason McLinton]

Both mandatory and voluntary processes are used, and for greater clarity, I'm speaking specifically about finished consumer products.

I think the approach that is being used right now for chemicals per se, which is also a combination of mandatory and voluntary, is working very well. We've had a couple of years' experience in working with the officials at the Departments of the Environment and Health. They recognize that the voluntary approach is yielding a lot better results more efficiently. That's the way the winds are blowing, but we just wanted to make sure the committee could benefit from our experience.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

You're suggesting that the surveys should be restricted to substances of the greatest concern, so you get the biggest bang from the buck.

[Jason McLinton]

Right, voluntary and of greatest concern, so that retailers can focus.... It's a highly competitive environment. Retailers are competing for market share, so they can focus their scant resources on getting information to help decision-makers make decisions.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

From your experience, have the surveys that have been conducted over many years revealed and resulted in significant bans on retail products?

[Jason McLinton]

To my knowledge, not one risk management action has been taken as a result of any of these voluntary or mandatory surveys. The only risk management action that has been taken on a consumer product that I'm aware of is the banning of BPA in babies' bottles. That was before that time, and I don't know the soundness of the science that was based on. I think that was more a popular concern.