Evidence of meeting #39 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was you're.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
William Amos Liberal Pontiac, QC
Madam Chair, I would simply point out that any concerns about the legality of the AMPs system...the previous government put that in place. I commended the government at the time for a number of changes made to the Environmental Enforcement Act. I think the nature of this conversation is ironic.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
William Amos Liberal Pontiac, QC
I was on the record years ago saying it as well. I'm being consistent.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
William Amos Liberal Pontiac, QC
To go back to this access to information aspect, for me it's the paradigm around which we achieve enforcement.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Deb Schulte
We just need to be careful, because obviously they can't, so I'll be mindful.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
William Amos Liberal Pontiac, QC
I know they can't, and I'm not asking them to expound upon policy directions.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
William Amos Liberal Pontiac, QC
I won't put them in that uncomfortable position. I will try not to, at least.
What I've heard so far, though, from Ms. Meroni is that there are specific mechanisms that are provided for in statutes, some mandatory and some not, which require a certain type of reporting—say, annual reports—and that the energies and the resources that are available are directed toward those required reporting mechanisms or those non-mandatory but statutorily suggested reports. That is why we don't have some other form of reporting, like an augmented publicly available database.
Now, Ms. McCready has mentioned that there is a new database system coming online soon. This is in reference to the NEMISIS system, which is a behind-the-curtain system not available to the public but available if you “access to information” it. As we all know, though, the access to information record of Environment Canada has been challenged in the past.
What I don't understand is why the enforcement branch can't update NEMISIS so that there is a public-facing side that enables access to publicly available information that could be accessed if there were ATIP. If there's a need to protect certain private information, why can't that be kept in a protected space? The United States does that. The United States has across-the-board integrated enforcement information, and we don't. We're upgrading our internal database, and that's good news.
4:45 p.m.
Director General, Environmental Enforcement Directorate, Enforcement Branch, Department of the Environment
It's very good news.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
William Amos Liberal Pontiac, QC
I'm happy for that, but I fail to understand why the public can't access the aspects of that database where the information could be accessed otherwise by ATIP.
4:45 p.m.
Director General, Environmental Enforcement Directorate, Enforcement Branch, Department of the Environment
What you are talking about is a significant undertaking.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
4:45 p.m.
Director General, Environmental Enforcement Directorate, Enforcement Branch, Department of the Environment
Go ahead.
4:45 p.m.
Chief Enforcement Officer, Enforcement Branch, Department of the Environment
Part of the challenge is that it is a significant undertaking, because there is so much data that does get entered into the system.
Where we focus our efforts, currently, is in establishing information available to the officers to guide and inform the work they're doing. We've been doing a lot of work around creating internal portals for staff, so that they have quick access to information to assist them in the execution of their duties and to have quick resource information available for them. That's really an area we've been looking at more, in having information available.
It goes without saying that trying to create something EPA-like is a very significant undertaking, just from the amount of data that would have to be looked at and extrapolated.
The improvements we have been making to what will be called GAVIA, which is the new information management system that will be replacing NEMISIS, are in an effort to also assist us in being able to extrapolate more information with respect to supporting some of the corporate reporting we're required to do and at some point to integrate with some of the intelligence information we gather, and so forth.
We're taking the small steps as we can to try to make improvements, but they definitely take time, and we are focused very much inward-looking, as well, to support the officers with internal portals.
4:50 p.m.
Director General, Environmental Enforcement Directorate, Enforcement Branch, Department of the Environment
If I can build on your building on my comment, so far, each of these things is a really big piece. It sounds small. You buy a new database system. You just go to the store and you buy one. It's not like that at all for government, and it's definitely not like that for law enforcement. It takes years to do these things, do them right, and make sure that when they're rolled out they don't have bugs in them and people can use them.
We've been spending a lot of time, as Margaret mentioned, focusing internally, and that's not for lack of caring about being able to offer the public more information. It's because our first step is to empower our officers to make sure they have what they need to do their jobs, and it addresses some of the concerns that were brought up in the PSES that Ms. Duncan raised. It's to really make sure that they have the modern technology they need and that they have access to the information they need at their fingertips.
We're putting in place a new database system for officers, which is GAVIA. We're also upgrading the software and the analytical tools our intelligence staff have and putting together some information portals to make sure people all across the country have access to information when they need it.
Those are big projects, many of which are just starting to come to a close in the next little while. What you are talking about is something entirely new.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
William Amos Liberal Pontiac, QC
It's entirely new, except to the extent that civil society has called for it over the past several years.
4:50 p.m.
Director General, Environmental Enforcement Directorate, Enforcement Branch, Department of the Environment
Yes.
What I meant is that we would have to start from scratch, and then it's a whole new initiative.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
William Amos Liberal Pontiac, QC
Okay.
I understand that the focus is on enforcement officers, the internal operations. Is it then the case that the design of this new database system has not been conceived with a view to, down the line, enabling public access, even though there is a stated intention to open government?
4:50 p.m.
Director General, Environmental Enforcement Directorate, Enforcement Branch, Department of the Environment
That wasn't the original design focus. It's not at all precluded by the way it's set up. The way that software works nowadays is that most of these things talk to each other, so it's not impossible at all.
4:50 p.m.
Director General, Environmental Enforcement Directorate, Enforcement Branch, Department of the Environment
The main focus was empowering the officers, and that's what it was set up to do.
