Evidence of meeting #69 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was information.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Julie Gelfand  Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General
Andrew Hayes  Principal, Office of the Auditor General
Tim Williams  Committee Researcher

5 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Deb Schulte

You have just under two minutes left.

5 p.m.

Liberal

Darren Fisher Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

Okay.

This is my last point of clarification. I'll give a last minute, if I can, to Mr. Bossio.

In your report, you state that the ECC department has a plan to support the G20 commitments we've made, but they have yet to implement that plan, or “a” plan.

5 p.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General

Julie Gelfand

That is our understanding. During the course of the audit, they developed a plan with a timeline to find out all the non-tax measures—loan guarantees, research and development—so they are now surveying, or should at some point be surveying, all the ministries to find out what the non-tax subsidies are that may be considered inefficient fossil fuel subsidies.

5 p.m.

Liberal

Darren Fisher Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

Did they tell you what the timeline was?

5 p.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General

Julie Gelfand

I don't know the answer to that question.

5 p.m.

Principal, Office of the Auditor General

Andrew Hayes

They did have a timeline. The plan that we saw was in draft. At the point where we saw it, it was being approved by the minister at the very end of our examination phase of the audit.

At this point in time, I think that's a question best asked of the department.

5 p.m.

Liberal

Darren Fisher Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

Fair enough.

Thank you very much for giving me clarity on all those little points that were kind of foggy.

If I do have a minute left, I'd be pleased to pass it on to Mike.

5 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Deb Schulte

You have 30 seconds, Mike.

5 p.m.

Liberal

Mike Bossio Liberal Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON

With regard to the data we're looking for from the minister, is this an unusual request for that kind of data? And if it isn't an unusual request, is it an unusual response?

5 p.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General

Julie Gelfand

It is not an unusual request. We often request all kinds of information. It is unusual to be refused that information.

5 p.m.

Liberal

Mike Bossio Liberal Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON

Thank you.

5 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Deb Schulte

Unfortunately, we've run out of time there.

Ms. Duncan.

5:05 p.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Thank you very much.

I just want to give one example of a fossil fuel subsidy that might relate to the poor. That would be the subsidy for providing diesel to isolated communities. I note that the government had it listed in the budget that they would work to replace this with another source, but they haven't done the action. That's what I'm saying; those are the kinds of initiatives that are probably interesting to look at.

Will the report that Environment Canada provides to you also be publicly available?

5:05 p.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General

Julie Gelfand

That's a great question to ask of the department. I don't know.

5:05 p.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Okay.

I just thought I would point out that I also went to your 2012 report. It is noted there, on page 9, that the OECD raised concerns that Canada had not provided full estimates of its tax expenditures. So this has been an ongoing issue about not disclosing. Again in that report, I would note the calculation of $40 billion in just direct spending on energy fossil fuel production over 30 years. That's a lot of money for trying to phase out. You also mentioned in a report as far back as 2005 that Finance published a framework for evaluation of environmental tax proposals.

Where is this stuff? Why is it so difficult to bring it forward? Are they saying that those frameworks are no longer valid, that they need a new framework?

5:05 p.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General

Julie Gelfand

That's a great question to ask the department.

5:05 p.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Okay. Those are my questions.

I want to thank you, Madam Commissioner, for your continued, thorough audits. I look forward to having the officials in here to give some explanations. I agree with you that it's our job as members of Parliament to hold them accountable, and not yours. You just do the excellent audits.

Thank you very much.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Deb Schulte

Thank you all very much.

We've come to the end of the question period.

I just want to bring something to everybody's attention, because it was alluded to several times. We did ask to have the department officials with us today. They told us they were unable to get the right people here today. It was a short order. They will be available for next Wednesday.

What we're not sure about is whether we are going to be here next Wednesday, but we'll hold them to that.

5:05 p.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

And if so, it will be in the fall.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Deb Schulte

No. Well, at the moment, they're suggesting Wednesday of next week.

If we're here Wednesday, we will do it. If we are not, then it's up to the committee to decide. We did hold the thought there on your motion.

Is there an agreement from the committee to have the departments in front of us as soon as possible on this issue?

5:05 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Deb Schulte

Okay.

I think we have brought some really good questions to the forefront. I think we would like to put them in front of staff.

There is obviously going to be a lot we will want to ask that they won't be able to answer, and you've already shared that they're just getting started, and certainly ECC may not be able to share much.

You asked us a question, which I don't think we've answered. I think we've answered two of the questions we've had, but the other was whether we would be interested in having you come back with your subsequent audit of what you get from ECC and anything now revealed through the order to reveal any of the information.

I believe the committee would be in favour of that. I don't know whether you need a motion. You don't.

I think I see agreement around the table. I'll just ask.

Do we have the agreement of the committee to have Ms. Gelfand come back as soon as possible with that information?

Do you want to speak before we do that, Ms. Gelfand? Go ahead.

5:05 p.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General

Julie Gelfand

I'm an independent agent of Parliament and it's up to me to decide which audits to do when.

I am hearing from this committee that this is a very important issue. I will go back into my planning exercise and see whether or not or when I can. I don't actually....

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Deb Schulte

You don't need any direction.

5:05 p.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General

Julie Gelfand

I don't report to you. I report to you when I've reported, but you can't tell me what to do. I do that independently.