Evidence of meeting #77 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was register.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Pierre LeBlanc  Director, Personal Income Tax Division, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Joëlle Montminy  Vice-President, Indigenous Affairs and Cultural Heritage Directorate, Parks Canada Agency
Genevieve Charrois  Director, Cultural Heritage Policies, Parks Canada Agency
Blaine Langdon  Chief, Charities, Personal Income Tax Division, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Peter Van Loan Conservative York—Simcoe, ON

Perhaps there's room for both, but my view is that the tax credit is better, for the same reason—and I will use the example of the scientific research tax credit, SR and ED, again. It captures what's happening in a community, what's happening in the economy. It's not the government picking and choosing projects, and so you're less subject to accusations of political corruption and so on. You're capturing what economic forces are out there, saying that this is a fruitful physical location for doing it.

Having acted for developers, I can tell you that when you're working out your pro forma, the cost of time is huge. We're lucky that interest rates are quite low now, but as those interest rates go up, that changes things. How long is somebody going to wait to see if their grant application comes through? If they're paying interest.... In development all the costs are front-loaded. Time is money. Time is terribly urgent in the development process. For a tax credit, they don't have to wait. If you're waiting for a grant application to come through, you could be waiting for a year and a half or two years for the whole processing to happen. Less will happen and not in the right places.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

I think I have about 30 seconds.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Deb Schulte

No, you're done. The red card means you're done. Sorry about that.

Mr. Godin.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Joël Godin Conservative Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I do not know if Mr. Van Loan would like to use the earpiece for simultaneous interpretation. I gather his French is very good.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Peter Van Loan Conservative York—Simcoe, ON

This could be a bit technical.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Joël Godin Conservative Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC

In that case, use it.

In the meantime, I have to remind my colleague, unfortunately, that we will not be indulging in petty politics on this. I could ask him what has been done in the past 20 years. We could actually go more than 10 years back and look at the past 20 years. That is not the objective of our meeting today though. I think we get along well in this committee and manage to avoid partisanship. We cannot change the past, but we can take action for the future.

You are here to help us, Mr. Van Loan, and the bill is interesting. For my part, I think the concept is good.

I would like to go back to the 20% that you suggest in Bill C-323. Earlier, you mentioned that construction projects that use built heritage are more, what should I say, not profitable, since that is probably not the right term to use, but rather more attractive in terms of commercial development than new construction is.

You know that developers always look at the cost of a project and the return on investment. My question is simple: is the 20% credit enough of a deal maker to entice developers or citizens to develop their project and move forward? In other words, is that 20% credit enough to generate interest?

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Peter Van Loan Conservative York—Simcoe, ON

Every project is different. Every pro forma and calculation is different. I think it's impossible to say what the right amount is. I think the best answer is that the American example has worked well. I was told it was 25%, but it's actually 20%, which is identical to what we've proposed here. It has generated lots of results.

It seems to be where officials within Parks Canada were heading. In terms of the development of the policy here, I've carried that forward. There seems to be a broad consensus that it's as good a number as you could arrive at.

There will probably still be projects for which it won't be enough. If you have too many heritage elements and not enough potential revenues downstream, it won't do the job for you. Maybe there will be the odd project where it is not needed because the project is so naturally successful, even without a tax credit. You have to settle on a number, and it seems to be a number that works.

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

Joël Godin Conservative Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC

Thank you.

The interesting part of the bill you are presenting this morning is that it costs the government nothing. It could even be profitable for the government to invest in this program and provide this tax credit.

You said it would cost $55 million to implement the program, and that the government would collect $14 million. I think those figures are very modest. You mentioned some higher amounts, but you allowed yourself a contingency. I think that is very wise. Being cautious is indeed part of the Conservative philosophy.

Could that 20% rate not be adjusted? You said the credit is 25% in the United States. The government will collect $14 million. If you are going to implement this program, would it not be advisable to set the credit at 25% right away?

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

Peter Van Loan Conservative York—Simcoe, ON

In terms of the credit, I think the 20% is solid. It's defensible. Why not go to 25%? Because someone will make the argument that the United States hasn't needed it to get the kind of activity they have. I would accept that argument.

Does it underestimate the positive economic impact to the fiscal framework? I would say that by definition this does, because when you are creating a vibrant, urban, downtown area, there are all kinds of other things that won't be taken into account, such as the broader area impact of economic activity, making a place a tourist attractor, changing the nature of a community to take properties that had no value and giving them value again—which also returns property taxes municipally—and the economic activity that goes on in those buildings that would otherwise have been blighted or demolished over years to follow. Those are other pieces that are a little harder to measure, a little more esoteric, but they're undoubtedly real.

I think you're probably right that the real impact is more.

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

Joël Godin Conservative Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC

In your bill, you set out categories for cost management to ensure that the credit is clearly defined. Do you think your bill is complete enough to provide for proper accountability?

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

Peter Van Loan Conservative York—Simcoe, ON

We are relying on the standards and guidelines that have been developed by Parks Canada. It was done by a lot of professionals over a considerable period of time. The idea is to separate out the normal stuff you would do as part of a regular development project, which wouldn't be eligible for the credit, but the stuff that is specifically heritage restoration oriented would be eligible for the credit.

I think that's the right approach, a sensible approach. I do think there is reasonable rigour. At the end of the day, you have to rely on professionals to assess that. That was done in the case of the grant program with in-house architects. We're shifting the burden so that it is outside architects who get retained and do that, but we'll have the professional expertise to do it. In all those cases, it will be experienced individuals with professional qualifications in exactly that area who do the assessments.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Deb Schulte

Thanks. You are right on time.

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

Joël Godin Conservative Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC

Thank you, Mr. Van Loan.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Deb Schulte

Thank you very much.

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

Peter Van Loan Conservative York—Simcoe, ON

The card system is very helpful.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Deb Schulte

Mr. Van Loan, thank you very much for bringing this bill forward. The committee was studying protected spaces, and obviously you were looking at parks and seeing heritage sites, so we started to sort of tap around the side of this issue from our previous study. Obviously this has given us an opportunity with your bill, and we're now studying heritage. It's good, really good, so I thank you for the bill.

We're going to move on to the departments, and question them on your bill.

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

Peter Van Loan Conservative York—Simcoe, ON

Great, thank you very much for your time and your interest.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Deb Schulte

We'll suspend for just a few minutes until our next witnesses get in place.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Deb Schulte

If I could get everybody back to the table, please, we don't have a lot of time, and I know we want to try to get in as many questions as we can.

We have two short blocks, so we're not going to have full rounds of questioning. Just as we didn't have a full round on the first round, we're not going to have a full round on the second round, so I want to try to get to it as fast as we can.

I would like to welcome our guests. From the Department of Finance, we have Blaine Langdon, chief of charities, personal income tax division, tax policy branch, and Pierre LeBlanc who is director of the personal income tax division, tax policy branch. We have from Parks Canada Agency, Joëlle Montminy, vice-president, indigenous affairs and cultural heritage directorate, and we have Genevieve Charrois, director of cultural heritage policies. Thank you very much, all of you.

Who would like to start?

Mr. LeBlanc.

9:30 a.m.

Pierre LeBlanc Director, Personal Income Tax Division, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Thank you very much, Madam Chair, and to all members of the committee, good morning.

We would like to take this opportunity to explain the lens through which my colleagues and I in the tax policy branch examine and evaluate tax credits such as this one.

As a starting point, it's important to consider whether the goal of any tax measure is consistent with the functions of the tax system. The primary function of the Canadian tax system is to raise revenues needed to finance programs and initiatives that benefit Canadians.

However, the tax system has other secondary functions. One of these involves incentives within the tax system to support economic and social objectives, such as increasing saving and investment and charitable giving. The member also mentioned the research and development program, which is a very good example. Disincentives, such as excise taxes on tobacco, can also be used to discourage activities with negative externalities.

A tax measure of the variety proposed in this bill seeks to further a social objective, in this case, encouraging the rehabilitation of historic properties, its stated goal. The preservation of Canada's built heritage could be considered a socially beneficial behaviour. You talked a lot about that. But it endeavours to achieve this at the expense of another desirable goal, raising revenue. We have to strike a balance between the two. In making such an assessment, we strive to determine if the tax expenditure in question can effectively and efficiently fulfill its stated purpose.

Is offering a tax incentive, like this one, the most cost-effective or efficient means for providing these benefits? The tax expenditure associated with the measure represents amounts or dollars that could otherwise be used towards supporting a similar objective through spending. The colleagues from Parks Canada can talk about what happens on the spending side. There are advantages and disadvantages. You touched on this a bit in the previous round of discussion for tax incentives versus spending. With tax incentives, it is a bit more bottom-up, so there's more flexibility. However, in terms of spending, it's easier to control program costs and to ensure other types of equity, like regional and sectoral equity, so there are trade-offs.

A key consideration when considering any tax measure of this type is the extent to which it's effective in changing behaviours, as opposed to simply subsidizing activity that would have taken place anyway in the absence of the measure. On the one hand, this credit could have some effectiveness in encouraging owners to rehabilitate rather than demolish heritage properties. You touched on the U.S. experience. Things here are a bit mixed. There are studies that suggest the federal rehabilitation tax credit, in particular, has been effective. An important point we want to make is that the estimates of economic effects in these studies assume that none of the rehabilitation work would have happened in the absence of the credit, so zero. Is that a fair assumption?

On the other hand, the credit could represent a windfall gain for existing owners of historic properties. Those required to maintain their properties, in accordance with provincial, territorial, or municipal legislation, or to those who would have undertaken it anyway.

You also talked about equity, another criterion integral to policy analysis. A specialized credit offers tax incentives to a limited group of taxpayers. In terms of the bill at hand, the benefits of the tax incentive would primarily accrue to corporations and a limited number of, likely higher-income, individuals who own heritage homes. While heritage properties undoubtedly involve extra expenses, it is not clear that it is appropriate for these expenses of one home owner or property owner to be subsidized through the tax system.

Providing tax recognition for rehabilitation expenses for heritage buildings that are used as personal residences, which is part of the bill, could be inconsistent with the treatment of non-taxable assets such as a principal residence. Currently, neither the expenses related to owner-occupied housing nor the benefits, such as capital gains on a principal residence, are recognized for tax purposes. This approach ensures symmetry in the tax treatment of principal residences. To the extent that tax assistance is provided for renovations to personal residences, this would in many cases result in an increase in the value of these residences, providing a tax-free gain on disposition of the property.

To a certain extent, the tax system already provides measures to support the preservation of Canadian heritage. The Income Tax Act provides incentives for individuals and corporations to make donations to registered charities that support heritage properties. These tax incentives for donations to registered charities in Canada are among the most generous in the world. Generally, the tax policy in these instances has been to encourage donors to make contributions to registered charities, that is, organizations that have the mandate and the capacity to preserve and maintain important properties for the benefit of the public.

Tax measures also impose compliance costs for taxpayers and administrative costs for the government. In this case, you're probably talking about both the Canada Revenue Agency and Parks Canada, and it's important to take these into account in analyzing the overall efficiency of the measure. You want to see how these would compare if you tried to achieve the measure in an alternative way, say, through a spending program.

You had the discussion comparing it to the U.S. At the federal level, it's a 20% tax credit for designated properties. One important difference between the two appears to be the amount of rigour around ensuring compliance. In the U.S., the National Park Service is involved in certifying rehabilitation projects to ensure the work meets standards for rehabilitation both before and after the completion of the work, and they can also complete on-site inspections. We don't necessarily see the same types of authorities or protections in this bill, and if they were added, that would have an effect on the administrative and compliance costs.

Finally, the department recognizes that developing an equitable and efficient tax system requires that tax legislation be drafted in a manner that protects individual tax measures from being accessed in ways counter to the original policy intent sought by legislators. In our tax policy development process, which includes legislative review and drafting, we do our best to provide comprehensive legislation that will be free from technical flaws that can undermine or run counter to the desired effects of the measure as voted by Parliament.

In this respect, we do have concerns about a few areas of the bill. By way of example, the bill's use of the phrase property “used in the course of rehabilitating a historic property” could be treated as quite broad in terms of what's eligible for accelerated depreciation, going beyond the building itself.

I'll wrap up there.

Thanks, Madam Chair and members of the committee. We'd be very happy to answer questions.

9:40 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Deb Schulte

We'll hold the questions off until we hear from everyone.

Joëlle, would you like to be next? Thank you.

9:40 a.m.

Joëlle Montminy Vice-President, Indigenous Affairs and Cultural Heritage Directorate, Parks Canada Agency

Yes, thank you very much.

Madam Chair, members of the committee, thank you for this opportunity to discuss Parks Canada's perspective on Bill C-323.

Bill C-323 would create a tax credit for the rehabilitation of historic properties. While its objective is worthwhile, there are shortcomings in its design that may impede its effectiveness with respect to heritage conservation.

Financial incentives can be a useful way to promote the conservation of heritage places. To be most effective, however, they must be carefully designed and properly integrated into a comprehensive and collaborative approach, supported by other Canadian jurisdictions.

In Canada, protection of heritage property not owned by the federal government falls within the purview of provinces and territories. As a result, a range of legislation and incentives exists across the country to protect our heritage places. These efforts are supported by hundreds of community groups who work directly in the conservation and preservation of heritage assets. It is a fact that heritage places are at risk and that their loss would be irreversible.

Through the Parks Canada Agency, Canada protects heritage places of national significance. The agency also works closely with numerous partners to conserve and present our heritage. As the federal lead for heritage conservation, Parks Canada also provides communities across the country with financial support for heritage conservation. I know that we provided information for your previous study in a broader context of heritage conservation.

This is not to say that Canada could not benefit from additional financial incentives; however, the bill makes specific references to accountability tools under Parks Canada’s responsibility without full consideration of some of the implications of these references. For example, the bill relies on Parks Canada’s various accountability tools for heritage conservation. While these tools appear suitable, there are challenges with each of them.

The bill sets out what historic properties would be eligible, including those commemorated under section 3 of the Historic Sites and Monuments Act, as well as properties listed on the Canadian Register of Historic Places. The Canadian register is the only pan-Canadian listing of historic places recognized at the municipal, provincial, territorial, and national levels. As such, it is widely used as a reference in the field of conservation. Unfortunately, the Canadian register is not yet a complete source of information for verifying eligibility as it is only 60% complete.

The bill also specifies that the standards and guidelines adopted and applied by Parks Canada must be followed in undertaking an eligible rehabilitation project. It requires an architect to certify that the work undertaken meets these standards. The “Standards and Guidelines for the Conservation of Historic Places in Canada”, while widely used, offers guidance only and does not set official requirements like a building code. This is why the certification process proposed in the bill raises concerns with the credentials and expertise of certifiers and their objectivity as well as with the timing of certification.

Parks Canada is of the view that the certification function needs to be defined in a comprehensive manner to ensure the consistency of the interpretation and application of the standards and guidelines. What is proposed in the bill is not equivalent to Parks Canada’s certification process, a comprehensive and internal practice that has proven successful in the past.

To conclude, financial incentives are widely recognized as a useful way to promote the conservation of heritage places; however, such incentives must be carefully designed in collaboration with other jurisdictions and partners to ensure their effectiveness. In addition, these incentives must include solid accountability tools.

Thank you.

I will be pleased to answer your questions.

9:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Deb Schulte

Thank you very much.

We'll move right into questioning, and we'll start with Mr. Bossio.

9:45 a.m.

Liberal

Mike Bossio Liberal Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you all so much for being here today. This is informative and another side that I have wanted to explore.

You've hit the nail on the head as for, you know, why tax credits? What are the other options that can be considered via grants, contributions, or statutory measures that could be taken, which would act as an option to the one being proposed in this bill?

I'd ask both of you to get into that.

9:45 a.m.

Vice-President, Indigenous Affairs and Cultural Heritage Directorate, Parks Canada Agency

Joëlle Montminy

We've appeared before to present a number of those potential measures.

As you know, we currently have a cost-sharing program which has proven to be effective. As we discussed here, this program was increased in budget 2016 to $10 million a year and, even at that level, it is oversubscribed. This program, at that level of funding, is coming to an end, so we will be returning to the $1-million normal level of funding which again will fall short of meeting the demands.

In terms of the mechanism of a cost-sharing program of that sort, it's been proven to be effective.