Evidence of meeting #10 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was volkswagen.
A video is available from Parliament.
Program Manager, Toxics, Environmental Defence Canada
I'll let Mr. Sharpe answer that question. He might have more information on that than I have.
Senior Researcher and Canada Lead, International Council on Clean Transportation
I don't have the numbers in front of me. Certainly there have been significant recall efforts around the world. For several, if not all, of these companies that have been found to have these defeat devices, we've done some estimates to try to figure out what the impacts are of having those vehicles be in compliance. Unfortunately, I don't know offhand how many vehicles we estimate are still on the road, including at those levels.
NDP
Laurel Collins NDP Victoria, BC
That's okay.
Do we have a sense of what the possible consequences are to human health of having these vehicles still on the road?
Senior Researcher and Canada Lead, International Council on Clean Transportation
It's somewhat a good thing that diesels aren't so popular in the North American market. Certainly in Europe there have been, we estimate, thousands of premature deaths as a result of this whole situation.
We, as an organization, like to remind ourselves that these aren't just numbers that we're throwing around. These are people's lives, these are premature deaths, these are hospitalizations, and these are asthma cases. That's why we really think this is an extremely important issue and why we're putting so many resources towards trying to empower governments to be able to measure and figure out the extent of the problem and devise policy solutions to try to rectify it.
NDP
Laurel Collins NDP Victoria, BC
Thanks so much.
Since the beginning of the Volkswagen investigation, to your knowledge, has Canada taken any action to improve its compliance and enforcement operations?
Again, this is to Mr. Sharpe or Mr. Malas.
Program Manager, Toxics, Environmental Defence Canada
Maybe I'll jump in.
I am not aware of any steps taken by the federal government to improve compliance checks and enforcement.
If I could just add one quick answer to the previous question you asked of me and Mr. Sharpe, the l28,000 Volkswagen vehicles that were sold in Canada that were rigged, the emissions from those vehicles is the equivalent of more than four million cars. That's just to put into perspective the amount of exhaust that excess emissions were polluting our air.
Even though we don't have research to indicate exactly what the public health costs in Canada were, we know that up to 15,000 Canadians die every year because of air pollution, so putting the pieces together can really help to paint a picture of how harmful those excess emissions were.
NDP
Laurel Collins NDP Victoria, BC
Mr. Sharpe, you talked about penalties leading to accelerated electrification. What do you see as some key changes Canada should make to be going in the good direction of accelerated electrification?
Liberal
Senior Researcher and Canada Lead, International Council on Clean Transportation
One key change, a simple one, is to just significantly boost that fine and penalties amount.
Really making a significant impact on electrification is going to require a lot more than the roughly $200 million that has been levied so far.
Liberal
Lloyd Longfield Liberal Guelph, ON
Thanks, Mr. Chair.
Thanks to the witnesses.
I'm going to share my time with Raj Saini, first of all, and then I'll pick up what might be left at the end of his time.
Liberal
Raj Saini Liberal Kitchener Centre, ON
Thank you very much.
Thank you very much to all the witnesses for testifying today. I really appreciate your time.
Mr. Malas, I don't understand some of the numbers you've expressed, and I have the numbers in front of me. How many charges were filed in Canada against Volkswagen?
Program Manager, Toxics, Environmental Defence Canada
I believe it was around 60 charges.
Liberal
Raj Saini Liberal Kitchener Centre, ON
What would have been a maximum fine total, if all those 60 charges had been fined to the max level?
Program Manager, Toxics, Environmental Defence Canada
According to a calculation that one of my colleagues made, and I'm not sure whether this is the precise number—
Liberal
Raj Saini Liberal Kitchener Centre, ON
Okay.
The precise number is $265 million. If all 60 charges had been fined at the maximum level, it would have been $265 million. The fine that we set was $196 million, right?
Liberal
Raj Saini Liberal Kitchener Centre, ON
Then it would have been almost 73% of the total fine amount, right?
Program Manager, Toxics, Environmental Defence Canada
Yes, but maybe I should clarify something.
The issue around how the entire number of cars of a certain model were packaged under one charge or one offence is the way the maximum number was reduced. If we had looked at each car separately, it would have added up to a much higher amount.
Liberal
Raj Saini Liberal Kitchener Centre, ON
The maximum fines that could have been applied to Volkswagen, then, with the 60 charges would have been $265 million.
I don't disagree with what you're saying; I'm just looking at the gross numbers. It would have been $265 million, and we fined at $196 million, which would have been 73% of the total fine amount.
Now, in the United States, for the same charges, do you know what the value of the total criminal charges would have been, if Volkswagen had been fined to the max? It would have been $32 billion, and the civil penalties would have been between $17 billion and $34 billion. If they had had a maximum fine count, then, it would have been between $49 billion to $66 billion.
Do you know what they actually charged?
Liberal
Raj Saini Liberal Kitchener Centre, ON
Okay.
Volkswagen paid $2.8 billion in criminal penalties and $1.45 billion in civil penalties, so in total it paid $4.3 billion out of a maximum, if we look at the lower end, of $49 billion, which would have been 8.6%.
Don't you think that in Canada we had a higher reach in terms of fines than the United States?
Program Manager, Toxics, Environmental Defence Canada
I do not think so. I'm happy to provide some calculations afterwards. I'm worried that if I try to provide those calculations right now, I'm going to—
Liberal
Raj Saini Liberal Kitchener Centre, ON
No, I have the numbers in front of me. A lot of these numbers are from Canadian or American media.
I can appreciate that we can have a discussion about whether the fine value is not high enough in Canada and is more severe in the United States, and that's a perfectly legitimate argument to have. Comparatively, however, when you look at both countries and at both judicial regimes, you see that we charged the higher percentage of the total fine cost when compared with the United States.
I don't know the terms of the agreement, but I think that we as a jurisdiction were more punitive against Volkswagen than the Americans were.
Would you not agree?
