Environment Committee on Dec. 9th, 2020

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Thank you so much, Mr. Albas.

I will maybe allow Mr. Malas to finish what he was saying, and then go to Mr. Sharpe.

[Muhannad Malas]

I was about to finish. The point I was going to make at the end was that the way the charges were laid and the packaging of 10,000 cars under one offence I think was one of the reasons why we saw the fine per car reduced to about $1,500 compared to the—I can't remember the exact number—tens of thousands in the U.S.

[Ben Sharpe]

Chair, I will just quickly add to that commentary by Mr. Malas.

It's my understanding that the per-vehicle maximum fine amounts in the U.S. Clean Air Act versus the Canadian Environmental Protection Act are fairly similar in their magnitude. As Mr. Malas pointed out, the fact that so many of the per-vehicle charges were bundled together seemed fairly arbitrary and wasn't commensurate with how things played out in the U.S. in California. That was one of the reasons the total fine, as well as the per-vehicle fine, was so much less in the Canadian context.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Thank you so much, Mr. Sharpe.

Mr. Malas, can you speak for 30 seconds about the kind of impacts on human health and the environment in this case.

[Muhannad Malas]

Yes, absolutely.

The main pollutant in question here with the VW violations is NOx, nitrogen oxides. They are known to cause cancer, or to have been linked to some cancer conditions. Health Canada has data to show that exposure to NOx is associated with many deaths in Canada every year. Other pollutants also come out of the diesel exhaust of diesel engines that were not particularly part of the regulatory charges, for example, particulate matter. All the diesel exhaust together can have severe public health impacts.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Thank you so much.

Sorry to interrupt, it's just that we have limited time.

Mr. Wright mentioned this idea of an impact statement and that there wasn't enough time to do that. It sounds like the provisions around public participation.... Could you elaborate on what was used in this case? They seem to have fallen short, so what should we be doing explicitly to strengthen them?

[Muhannad Malas]

I'm sorry, could you repeat that question. My headset just disconnected for some reason.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Sure. Mr. Chair, I hope I can get another 15 seconds, if that's all right.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Yes, of course.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

My question was around public participation. Mr. Wright mentioned a victim impact statement. There wasn't enough time for people to submit that, so it doesn't seem as if these impacts were adequately taken into account. In your opinion what should we be doing to strengthen the provisions for public participation that seem to have fallen short?

[Muhannad Malas]

I'll be quick.

Compared to the U.S., where authorities and the Crown invited community impact statements and victim impact statements, we did not see that happening here. For the process that David was speaking to in the Canadian impact statement within the Canadian proceedings, I was one of the people who tried to submit a community impact statement. The Crown prosecutor did not allow me to present that. I won't repeat what David said, but we were not able to present that statement.

The problem we saw was that, unlike the U.S. where the prosecutor saw the community as an important piece of the prosecution, here it was the other way around where we felt we were being locked out of the court process. We were unable to represent our communities when it came to presenting an impact statement in how the VW crime impacted public health.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Could I just ask that Mr. Wright's opening statement be sent to the committee as well to make sure we have all the opening statements and remarks, prepared speaking notes, on the record? I think we received Mr. Sharpe's.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Apparently we've received it, but it's being translated.

We'll go to Ms. Saks for five minutes, please.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

Thank you, everyone.

Thanks to all the witnesses here today.

This is my first time on the environment and sustainable development committee, having recently been elected in the riding of York Centre. For my constituents the environment was a significant issue, not just in what's happening currently, but also in how we are preparing ourselves for future generations. I am thrilled to be on this committee. My understanding is that today the focus of the study is on enforcement and collaborative measures going forward, and how we do better.

My first question, with that in mind, is directed to Mr. Wright. I noted that the government has invested $46 million over the next five years in environmental enforcement. I'd like to hear from you, Mr. Wright, about the existing collaborative efforts between the different levels of government that are currently in place regarding enforcement. Would you be able to explain in more detail, to me and my home province of Ontario, how those work to ensure enforcement measures are working collaboratively to protect Canadians?

[David Wright]

The federal government and the federal Crown's office is a completely separate organization from the provincial Crown. It is certainly conceivable that the provincial Crown and the police operating in Ontario could have laid criminal charges against Volkswagen. There is no communication or co-operation in these kinds of investigations between provincial Crowns and the federal Crown. It is certainly my view that such collaboration does make some sense in certain specialized prosecutions. The understanding of the criminal process, and the understanding of the environmental legislation and the environmental science and collaboration between the two parties, could assist the Canadian public and stand for a more formidable enforcement of laws against serious environmental violators.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

Thank you for that.

My understanding is that collaborative efforts between the different levels of government to ensure enforcement measures are put in place would be helpful.

[David Wright]

Certainly. I would also suggest that I'm not aware, but it may be possible, that there may be collaboration between the provincial and federal environmental organizations.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

Thank you, I appreciate your response.

My next question is with regard to the environmental damages fund. We know that the EDF currently is collecting funds from fines, court orders and other measures that take place. With the VW court case, the largest damages fine in the history of Canada was levied, at $196 million. My understanding is the aim of the EDF is to fund the projects that restore the environment and conserve wildlife.

My question is to Mr. Sharpe and Mr. Malas. Would you be able to explain to me a little bit more about the benefits of having a program that's geared to creating environmental benefits from enforcement measures, and whether the system is replicated in other countries so we have a model to work by?

[Ben Sharpe]

I do believe that the process by which the funds were earmarked, both in the U.S., as well as in California—California had its own separate legal process that it went through with respect to Volkswagen—we've seen significant amounts of the fines that have been set aside specifically for projects around electrification, and also advancing some other emission reduction programs, and this is across the transportation sector, which is really encouraging. It's not just limited to light-duty vehicles, it includes buses, heavy-duty trucks, even ships and locomotives in some cases.

The fact that these funds, which are substantial, are given the opportunity to make such an impact across the transportation sector with specific goals towards electrification and also environmental justice, has been a really key focus as we try to get these clean air technologies deployed in the communities that are most impacted.

Absolutely, I think that Canada has a blueprint that it can follow in terms of what the U.S. and California have done.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

We're back to the Conservative Party. I don't know who is going to speak.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Mr. Chair, could we please pass this over to Ms. Collins, again?

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

I want to thank Mr. Albas and the Conservative caucus again for giving me time.

We heard in Mr. Sharpe's statement, or it's my understanding, that there are other companies that have used defeat devices. One of my concerns is that we've been waiting for the government to implement the clean fuel standard. It's one of the key parts of the government's plan to manage pollution, however, it seems like kinds of standards will only work if companies aren't able to get around them.

Mr. Malas, to your knowledge, are there other companies being investigated or charged in Canada?

[Muhannad Malas]

We're not aware of other companies that are being investigated or charged, but we are aware of charges that have been laid in other jurisdictions against other companies. I would mention just as an example Daimler, which owns Mercedes-Benz.

Concerning a class action lawsuit that's been filed in Ontario, some of the documents I looked at claimed that there were about 80,000 rigged or affected vehicles that were, I guess, imported and sold in the Canadian market, but we're not aware of any investigations happening by ECCC with respect to that company or other companies.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

That is 80,000 just in Canada.

Do we have a sense of how many other cars with defeat devices may still be on the roads around the world?

This is for either Mr. Malas or Mr. Sharpe.