Environment Committee on March 8th, 2021

[Karen Hogan]

Our role is really to look at the government's actions and to help Parliament monitor the government's actions. We don't carry out these actions. However, we help Parliament put pressure on the government to take action in order to reach its targets.

Obviously, I don't have on hand the percentage of our budget devoted to the commissioner's work over the past 10 years. We make sure that we look at the key parts of the government. We have many employees, and the vast majority of them carry out several tasks. A few employees focus on one specific task, but it's very difficult to determine. It will take us a little while to find the information that you're asking for, but I can give you the details later.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Yes, please do. We'll need them.

Earlier, Ms. Le Quéré, who sits on the Climate Change Committee in the United Kingdom and the High Council on Climate in France, listed the key components of good climate governance, such as annual reviews, an independent body and objectives. She emphasized aspects that have proven successful elsewhere, including in the United Kingdom, starting with the independence of the commissioner.

Mr. DeMarco, you served as the environmental commissioner in Ontario, an independent position. Can you tell us about your experience in Ontario?

[Jerry DeMarco]

I want to thank the member for the question.

I'll, again, revert to English just so I make sure that I cover all of the terminology necessary to answer that interesting question.

Yes, I'll speak of both my limited experience at this level, which comprises five weeks, and my previous experience at the Ontario level.

There are two questions there. There is the debate that's going on today about the role of the commissioner and then there is the larger debate about what laws and policies and structures are needed for effective climate governance and implementation of targets, including the Paris target and so on.

We're here, more specifically, to speak about the former rather than the latter.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

[Jerry DeMarco]

Having said that, I do reiterate what I said to Mr. Schiefke, which was that one of my reports at the Ontario level does go into best practices in terms of climate change governance.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Ms. Collins has the honour of the last question today in this hearing, which she proposed.

Ms. Collins, go ahead, please.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Mr. Chair, how much time do I have?

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

You have six minutes, but anything you can do to make it shorter would earn you brownie points.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Thank you to the witnesses.

We've been having this discussion about the potential of having the commissioner of the environment review the merits of government policies and their mandate and really the question of those that are forward-looking versus backward-looking.

Maybe first I'll go to Mr. DeMarco.

Congratulations on your appointment. As you are new to the role, I'd really like to hear from you on whether you see a benefit to having some kind of forward-looking evaluation of environmental policies in addition to that really important backward-looking auditing work.

[Jerry DeMarco]

Certainly it's an important role. Whether you can have that role fit comfortably in an auditor's role is a question that I'm sure some of you will be debating. There are pros and cons to the various different models, but the typical auditor role includes extensive powers to obtain information and access to government officials all the way up to cabinet confidences and so on. Typically a policy advisory body does not have that ability. To the extent that you are envisaging a commissioner who does all things, I'm not aware of any model that has that extensive a suite of powers including all of the typical auditor's powers plus essentially the same powers that a policy-making or policy advisory body would have.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

I'm sorry to interrupt, Mr. DeMarco, but I have a limited amount of time.

We heard from previous witnesses about examples from Denmark, Finland, and New Zealand as well as about the previous Ontario version of the environment commissioner doing some of that both forward-looking and backward-looking work. I'm just curious. It sounds as though, from what I heard you say, that forward-looking evaluation work is important. You're not certain what model we need, but I just want to focus in on that forward-looking evaluation piece.

[Jerry DeMarco]

Yes, that is a critical role in the formulation of wise policy and the subsequent implementation of that policy. It's just a question of where you're going to situate that role. Is it just within government? Is it within an independent officer of the legislature? Is it in a panel of advisers? There are all sorts of models out there. I should clarify, though, that the previous Ontario model did not involve full auditing powers for the commissioner plus the policy evaluation and recommendation roles. It had the latter but it did not have the typical Auditor General's powers of access to information. The other models in Europe are more particularly associated with just the climate question. Recall that our office is looking at sustainable development writ large and at environmental issues across the board. Those issues are slightly different from just climate governance.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

I'll move on to the question of resources, staffing and the current structure that exists.

Ms. Hogan, currently, if the Office of the Auditor General is under-resourced, just in the hierarchy for decision-making, you have the ability to take [Technical difficulty—Editor] and kind of move them to a different department if that's required. This is in no way a criticism. I'm just trying, really, to clarify that ultimately decisions about which staff are doing what fall to you as the Auditor General. Is that correct?

[Karen Hogan]

We see this globally when it comes to budget allocation. Yes, that does fall to me, but since the commissioner of the environment is an assistant auditor general within the office, all members of the senior management team play a role. Mr. DeMarco has some of the scientific expertise that he needs. I know he's told me that he wants to hire some more, and he has the skills, capabilities and money to do so, so he can hire the individuals he wants. He has looked at the team we have, and he would like to add to that.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Sorry to interrupt, Ms. Hogan. I'd just like clarification on that point, because that was going to be one of my questions. We have heard from the previous witnesses and from others that the Office of the Auditor General hasn't recruited explicitly environmental experts in several years. Have you given permission to hire additional environmental experts? Is that correct?

[Karen Hogan]

Absolutely. We've hired some recently, and Jerry has asked that we make sure to set aside a full-time equivalent space to give him more resources, and we've done that. We can also contract out for some expertise that he might need, which would be very particular and might not be needed for the long term. Like any other assistant auditor general, he has the freedom to do that. He enjoys the benefit of being able to come and speak to Parliament. He has, in consultation with me, the freedom to pick the topics he would like to look at and the areas he looks at, so he is very independent.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

I'm sorry to interrupt....

Do I have another minute, Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

You can make a very quick comment and then we have to stop. We have resource constraints in the House.

Go ahead for 10 seconds, Ms. Collins.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

That's okay, Mr. Chair. Thanks so much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thanks. I appreciate that very much.

I want to thank Ms. Hogan, Mr. DeMarco and Mr. Hayes for being here this afternoon. I know we'll have the opportunity to see each other again, and I really look forward to that.

Thank you, committee members, for your incisive questioning. We'll see everyone again on Wednesday for the minister and senior officials.

Thank you again and have a good evening.

The meeting is adjourned.