Evidence of meeting #22 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was amendment.
A video is available from Parliament.
6:35 p.m.
Liberal
Lloyd Longfield Liberal Guelph, ON
[Technical difficulty—Editor] multiple times expressed concern over this. Industry has expressed concern.
I think of myself as a managing director of a business where I had to fill in an environmental report to the board of directors every year. The board of directors in England had to know that I was complying with all laws, that I was actually tracing where shipments were going, that they were being handled properly and that the waste disposal companies that we had under contract were delivering according to environmental standards. I couldn't sign that paper with this type of legislation because I don't know.
The definitions are moving. The list is a list that we can change later. One of our witnesses said that they did not know where this list came from and that this is certainly not the list that the Basel Convention is following. We have this fictitious group of products—some are plastic, some are gases, some aren't either—and trying to enforce that....
Years later, I was on the solid waste management committee at the City of Guelph. We had contracts with other countries and other jurisdictions to share waste that we could use as a resource. We had contracts in place. What happens to those contracts? Now the waste management committee at the City of Guelph needs to, instead of shipping on a contract to recycle, put it in the ground. We don't have the landfill capacity. We've had testimony that we have a landfill capacity that will be maxed out in many communities by 2030. Now we're putting legislation in place to accelerate that.
As for the clip of “the Liberals don't care about waste and don't care about plastics”, we deeply care. We need to have legislation that is enforceable and that meets the recycling objectives that the world has. This, on the back of a napkin...and change it later? I'm with Mr. Bittle. Putting my name on this report.... At least we have testimony I can refer to that says, “This was a terrible piece of legislation that we're going to try to fix later. I tried to make my points but we didn't have the votes in committee. The votes came from the NDP, the Bloc and the Conservatives. They weren't Liberal votes.” I can count votes and I know where this is going.
There are real-world consequences on the businesses that are going to be affected by this legislation, as well as every municipality in southern Ontario that's shipping waste across the border. We're not making friends with this legislation and rightly so, because we're not objectively looking at this in terms of meeting the plastics diversion targets that we all have.
I'm very disappointed. I'm disappointed in the committee, disappointed in the politics that's going on, but mostly I'm disappointed because we didn't listen to the voice of industry. We shut that down. We didn't call on witnesses from municipalities. We shut that down. We tried to get the Federation of Canadian Municipalities involved. We rushed this report and the result is that we have a report that's really not a good report.
I'm disappointed, but I've had my say and that's on the record.
6:35 p.m.
Bloc
Monique Pauzé Bloc Repentigny, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I would like to come back to the issue at hand.
We do need to discuss the schedule to this act. Ms. Collins reminded us that the schedule can be amended and that discretion can be exercised there. So it seems to me that it should be fairly simple to vote on it. I don't think it needs to take another 20 minutes.
I'm sorry, but I'm a little exasperated at all the time we waste rehashing. Let's focus on the task at hand, the schedule. It seems to me that we should be able to vote on it quickly.
6:40 p.m.
NDP
Laurel Collins NDP Victoria, BC
If Mr. Longfield is finished, if it's not raised again, then I'm happy to vote and move on to the schedule.
6:40 p.m.
Liberal
Yvan Baker Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Can we have a recorded vote, please?
(Clause 3 agreed to: yeas 6; nays 5)
6:40 p.m.
Liberal
6:40 p.m.
Liberal
Ya'ara Saks Liberal York Centre, ON
No, I'd like to move the following amendment, that Bill C-204 be amended by adding new clause 4, on page 2, after line 10: “Coming into force: The provisions of this act come into force on a day to be fixed by order of the Governor in Council.”
6:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
That's pretty straightforward.
Does anyone want to say something about that?
Mr. Bittle.
6:40 p.m.
Liberal
Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON
If this piece of legislation is going to pass and the opposition knows it's going to be flawed, I guess here's an opportunity to at least give the government some time to deal with the consequences therein. I think it's reasonable to expect that if everyone here acknowledges the flaws in the legislation—and, as Ms. Collins said, they could have proposed amendments—as Mr. Albas said, I'll march down to Jonathan Wilkinson's office and demand changes. That at least would buy industry and the government some time to deal with it, and would potentially mean the government would have to bring legislation.
I think it's reasonable, especially given the points raised by Ms. Collins and Mr. Albas—about why we don't make it less worse—so this is our attempt to do what the opposition has suggested we do, which is to fix the mess that is this bill. Perhaps this is a minor opportunity to bring some changes to avoid the consequences of this well-intentioned but flawed piece of legislation.
6:40 p.m.
Liberal
Yvan Baker Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Thanks very much, Chair.
I want to weigh in on the proposed amendment by Ms. Saks. I think it makes a lot of sense.
It really looks like Conservative members in particular are determined to push this bill through. I know it's from a Conservative MP. They're determined to push it through the committee, despite the serious issues that have been raised by government officials and that have been raised by people in the waste-processing and recycling sector, who would bear the responsibility for actually making sure that we can process our waste if this bill were to pass and come into effect. I would at least hope they would give the government reasonable time to make those corrections that Mr. Albas was saying need to be made to the bill.
I think there are a number of other things that need to be corrected. The schedule needs to be amended because there are things that aren't plastic listed on the schedule. We've heard from officials about the need to amend regulations or update regulations.
The government members of the committee, including me and others, have tried to underline some of the concerns that have been raised by the sector that's responsible for waste processing and recycling across Canada, through our references and summarizing of the letters that our committee received objecting to the bill and pointing out the consequences. The government would have to undertake regulatory changes to make sure there was clarity for that sector and for the enforcement authorities.
There's another thing that we've talked about in previous meetings. Today we haven't spent as much time on it, but in previous meetings members of this committee asked officials what the implications of this bill would be for waste processing in this country. We heard that a tremendous amount of the products that currently are exported for processing would essentially have to go into landfills, which, first of all, is impractical because we have a landfill capacity problem in most provinces. Provinces weren't consulted on this, but even before consulting them we know that landfills across Canada, in many provinces anyway, have very limited capacity. In Ontario I think we will max out in about 10 years, and it takes five to 10 years just to build a landfill, to permit it, regulate it, construct it, etc., and make it available to process waste. That's the first thing.
The second thing is that I don't know how to explain why we would pass a bill that would allow plastics to go into a landfill when they could potentially be recycled, which is what the current process allows for. Even though they have to be exported, they get processed.
The reason I'm raising all this is to say that these are the kinds of flaws that exist in this bill. These are the kinds of issues that we've heard from witnesses and officials need to be resolved, clarified or better defined.
I think Ms. Saks presents an amendment that's quite reasonable and practical, which is designed to give the government time to fix the bill, to fix the regulations to ensure that they conform and to make sure that we have the capacity to actually implement this.
The last point I'll make is that, at the end of the day, we're the environment committee and we're here to protect the environment. What we've heard from folks, including officials, is that this bill, if it were to pass in its current state, would potentially have plastic waste, some of which could have been recycled, sitting in landfills. That's not protecting the environment. That's damaging it.
I'm disappointed about that. I'm disappointed that this bill has come this far along. I do not think we should allow it to pass, but if that's the will of the opposition members, then I think, at the very least, they should give the government time to make the necessary adjustments to compensate for some of these flaws and problems.
6:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
Ms. Saks, I see your hand is up. Is that from when you proposed the amendment or is that new?
6:45 p.m.
Liberal
Ya'ara Saks Liberal York Centre, ON
No, Mr. Chair. I've added myself to the speakers list. Considering it is my proposed amendment, I'd like to speak to it when it's my turn.
6:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
It looks like it's your turn, and then Madam Pauzé and then Mr. Longfield.
Did you take your hand down and then put it back up, or did you just leave it up?
6:45 p.m.
Liberal
Ya'ara Saks Liberal York Centre, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
We've certainly heard from colleagues the concerns of rushing this through and the insistence that we're all on the same page on what we want to achieve here. I'd like to ask the officials, since we have them here, what the implications would be of our rushing this forward. If we rush to push this into force as it is now, where does that land us in terms of this legislation?
I'd like to hear from the officials.
6:45 p.m.
Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Environmental Protection Branch, Department of the Environment
Mr. Chair, we can't comment on the outcome of your debate and discussions. We look forward to seeing what the committee will conclude.
6:45 p.m.
Liberal
Ya'ara Saks Liberal York Centre, ON
Well, the officials can't comment necessarily based on the amendments that we've passed and what we've discussed until now. The officials can't give us any insight on the.... They've commented themselves about some of the unworkability of this. Let's hear from them. If it's passed as is, are we okay?