Evidence of meeting #28 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was alberta.
A video is available from Parliament.
Minister of Energy, Government of Alberta
I'm not sure if others can hear anything. I still can't hear anything.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
It still doesn't seem to work.
Ms. Pauzé, could you ask another witness a question? The last comment will not be subtracted from your time.
Bloc
Monique Pauzé Bloc Repentigny, QC
In that case, I'll ask Ms. Wirsig one last question.
As a comparison, it is said that some countries have fewer regulations. However, does this mean that Canada must follow those countries?
In Canada, Manitoba, Ontario and Quebec are making an extra effort. It seems to me that all the provinces should make an extra effort, based on a country that has regulations.
Program Manager, Plastics, Environmental Defence Canada
I'm not sure Canada can really boast of having better environmental protections than many countries out there. We've not been a leader on climate change. We're not a leader on plastics. The Alberta government has just handed more than $400 million to a virgin plastics producer that will make polypropylene out of propane. I'm not sure why we consider that to be an environmentally friendly economic development project.
If we can regulate proper reuse and recycling of plastics, I would suggest that this plant could contribute to durable plastic products that could be used for reuse systems, but unless we have a regulatory framework—which currently doesn't exist in Alberta, Ontario or Quebec, to be frank—that won't happen. We will just be producing virgin polypropylene that will end up in the world's oceans. It will end up in our landfills. It will be burned in the Edmonton Enerkem facility and we will end up breathing in dioxins and furans that are created through the burning of plastics.
We can live up to environmental standards only if we create those standards. That's why we applaud what the federal government is doing. It's trying to create some standards around plastics in Canada.
Liberal
Lloyd Longfield Liberal Guelph, ON
Could the clerk supply the question from Madame Pauzé in writing to the minister? I think it was a really good question and it would be great to get a written response.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
Sure. Can the clerk work with Madame Pauzé to craft the question and then the minister can respond in writing?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
That's great.
We'll now go to Mr. Bachrach for two and a half minutes.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I have a question for Ms. Wirsig.
We've heard a lot of talk about the circular economy. My understanding is that if we move successfully to a circular economy, there is going to be significantly less demand for virgin resin, which is used to make plastic. That has implications for employment.
Could you offer your thoughts on the role the federal government should play in ensuring a just transition for workers currently involved in that industry?
Program Manager, Plastics, Environmental Defence Canada
Through you, Mr. Chair, the federal government needs to ensure that Canada's economy will be up to supporting workers in the green transition. For what that means in concrete terms, Environmental Defence has worked with economist Jim Stanford on a report that I'm happy to share with the committee.
It's actually not a very complicated transition, because so many jobs are created in Canada all the time. The service industry creates lots of jobs. With reuse systems, we're talking about creating lots of jobs through reuse and repair systems and those kinds of things.
The circular economy will create jobs, but we need to transition workers from what stands to be a stranded economy involved in the carbon economy. We will risk stranding workers and stranding huge amounts of infrastructure and capital in that industry. This is what investment analysts are warning investors about right now.
We need to build the transition and ensure that older workers have an opportunity to retire with dignity and that younger workers get the training they need to shift industries if necessary. We need to put all that wonderful Alberta know-how—the technology, the logistics, the engineering and the maintenance—to work in industries that build our economy for the green future.
We need to put workers first in that priority list and shareholders second.
Liberal
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
I actually have a quick question for Mr. Goetz.
Do any of your members currently engage in providing reusable beverage containers?
President, Canadian Beverage Association
Our packaging is Tetra Pak, aluminum and PET, recycled at very high levels.
Liberal
Conservative
Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC
Thank you, Chair. Thank you to all the witnesses.
Chair, just to make sure I don't erode Mr. Jeneroux's time—I want to share my time with him—would you cut me off at two and a half minutes? That will save me from what happened with Mr. Albas.
I'm going to start with Minister Savage.
You talked about both sides of the equation, both the petrochemical and the opportunity to become world leaders in the circular economy. I'm just trying to remember, but do not recall whether you have some significant first nations' partnerships in these jobs and opportunities.
Minister of Energy, Government of Alberta
We set up a Crown corporation called AIOC, the Alberta Indigenous Opportunities Corporation, and in every major project we're encouraging indigenous ownership and indigenous equity, whether it's a natural resource project or in the petrochemical industry. In fact, we just recently announced participation in a natural gas processing facility, Cascade, in which there was significant indigenous equity. They would be eligible for the petrochemical sector and to be participants, to be owners, to be equity owners in the plastics circular economy.
Conservative
Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC
Great. We know, as we strive to create equal economic opportunity, that Alberta is leaps and bounds ahead in that area.
What I worry about is this banning and perhaps the extension of bans. On international exports, do you have any quick comments in terms of how you might worry about what happens to products that are perfectly legal, for example, in the U.S. but that, because of Canada's moving in this direction, might create some problems for your industries?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
As Mr. Jeneroux's advocate, I must tell you you have 25 seconds.
Minister of Energy, Government of Alberta
Yes, we would have concerns. I think that would drive investment in petrochemical facilities and other facilities into other jurisdictions, just because of the uncertainty. The manufacturing would still happen, just not in Canada.
Conservative
Matt Jeneroux Conservative Edmonton Riverbend, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
With friends like you, I don't know....
I quickly want to get a question to the Beverage Association, but before I do, some of the comments made by Environmental Defence Canada blow my mind. They want to support their workers, and they've heard about all the work Alberta is doing to transition workers, and yet they support this plastic ban. Again, I just want to get that comment on the record.
To the Canadian Beverage Association, Mr. Goetz, thank you so much for joining us here today. Let's talk a bit about the circular economy, if we can, how beverage container recycling relates to that, and maybe even what's needed to increase beverage container recycling rates in order to get us to that. If you could expand that argument for us, that would be great.
