Environment Committee on April 28th, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Go ahead.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

I would like to go back to the minister.

Minister, you were presented here with an apples/oranges kind of presentation by MP Bittle.

What I'm hearing from industry is the fact that the term “manufactured plastic” could refer to any type of plastic that shares the same qualities. Under CEPA, by being designated under schedule 1 as toxic, it's not only negativity to the consumer, but, in fact, there is no certainty or scientific basis that an application being used for a single-use form of plastic—let's say, a syringe to give a vaccination—has the same molecules as some of the products the government is banning.

From a business perspective, investors would say they don't know what is going to be regulated or in what circumstances, because with science you can't tell the difference between the two. That sends a chill on investment.

[Sonya Savage]

I would agree with that. We've certainly heard from investors. Of course, we're trying to attract $30 billion of investment to Alberta, and we have a lot of economic and competitive advantages with a skilled workforce and an industry that's committed to carbon reduction.

We've heard from investors that there is a great cloud of uncertainty in Canada over what this means. That's piled on top of a lot of other uncertainty that's out there. Remember, we're still dealing with Bill C-69, which gives us regulatory uncertainty on even getting a project through a regulatory process. You add on this piece of legislation and the labelling that plastic is toxic, and it adds on a whole new layer of uncertainty. Again, those investors have choices of where to invest in other jurisdictions.

In fact, we've seen a huge investment of a petrochemical facility going into Pennsylvania. That facility would have been nice to have in Canada, because there were jobs. To give you some perspective, the opportunity in Alberta for jobs is, we believe, to create 90,000 direct and indirect jobs over construction and operation. Those are 90,000 jobs that Alberta desperately needs, and those are 90,000 jobs that Canada desperately needs. They are also 90,000 jobs that could go to some other jurisdiction with lower environmental standards.

I would agree with what you just said, and it's a very significant concern for our province.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

At the last meeting we had Professor Curran, who said that designating this into CEPA allows the government to regulate, and regulation can take many forms, including bans, such as we've seen from this government.

Other witnesses today have said that there could be other forms of regulation once this gets put in. That kind of regulatory uncertainty, especially considering you've said that primarily provinces have been the ones to regulate on this and know exactly the challenges by both industry and by reusers and processors of plastics in the municipalities....

Do you feel that this could not just result in an investment chill, but also lead to “who's on first?” in dealing with plastics?

[Sonya Savage]

I would also agree with that, because, as I said earlier, we're trying to start a plastic circular economy. We see a tremendous opportunity there as well. This is going to create uncertainty in being able to achieve our goals. For instance, we know that the global demand for these types of recoverable waste materials has been reduced and there are fewer countries accepting waste. North America has that problem. We believe we can be a centre of excellence here in the province of Alberta. Again, much-needed jobs and much-needed diversification are required.

This piece of legislation and uncertainty puts a cloud on whether we can achieve that type of circular economy, create the plastic feedstock to start a circular economy and achieve our objectives there. It creates a tremendous amount of uncertainty. That's why we've seen five provinces jointly sign a letter, reminding the federal government that this is provincial jurisdiction and that the provinces are acting. It's not a failure of provinces to act. You have at least five provinces that are taking initiatives.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Mr. Baker, go ahead.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you to all of our witnesses for being here.

I would honestly love to ask all of you questions, and of course I won't have time to do that.

Specifically, Mr. Goetz, we worked together well in the past on other issues, and I hope you won't hold it against me if I direct my questions elsewhere.

Mr. Lee, I am not a University of Guelph alum, and I hope you won't hold that against me. I'll try not to hold it against you. My questions will be for you.

There are a number of insights that I drew from your presentation. I took away that we can take many steps regulating and modifying the materials we use in packaging, but we do little to help the environment if we don't do a few things.

One is creating standards that must be adhered to regarding what can be recycled and what can be composted. A second is communicating clearly, in a consistent fashion, what can be recycled and composted and what can't, so that consumers can make the right choices when purchasing and trying to recycle their compost, and so that processing facilities, like the ones you run, can sort and process recyclable and compostable materials effectively. A third is equipping our processing facilities, whether that's recycling or composting, to be able to manage that waste appropriately. Those are some of the key take-aways from your presentation.

Are these the key points I should take away?

[Norman Lee]

Yes, absolutely, they are. Whatever the government implements, as far as legislation and regulations, it has to be implemented in practice and must be practical. People need to understand what to do and what bin to put different packages and products into, and we need to be able to upgrade our facilities and invest in them. You're absolutely right.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

I have a two-part question.

What are the consequences for compostable materials entering your processing facilities for municipal recycling systems like the ones you run, but also for the environment?

[Norman Lee]

If compostable plastic products and alternatives like that end up in our blue box recycling facility, they'll probably end up as contamination in many other streams. Sorting is never perfect in these streams. For example, if you combine compostable plastic bags with fossil fuel plastic bags, they're no longer recyclable if there's enough of them in there.

It's the same thing if you put these compostable products and packages into our composting system. If they don't fully break down then, they contaminate the finished compost and make it unsellable.

For the environment, most of these products coming into our system now, as our facilities are designed, would end up pulled out as residue and sent to landfill. They would not be diverted without additional investments in our facilities.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

And that, of course, is harmful to the environment.

You proposed a number of solutions to the problem, and I realize I have under two minutes left, so I'll ask for your response to be as concise as you can, Mr. Lee.

One of those solutions is producer responsibility for compostable products. What should those responsibilities include?

[Norman Lee]

They should be the same as any other producer responsibility program. They should be responsible for operating and funding the program to meet high targets.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Another one you recommended is mandatory recycled content requirements. What do you think should be included in those requirements?

[Norman Lee]

That's going to drive demand for the recycled commodities to be collected and produced. One of the things is that there should be a minimum post-consumer amount in there to make sure that the materials that consumers put in the blue box get recycled back into products.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Another one you recommended is federal programs to support investment in processing infrastructure from compostable products and packaging. Can you describe how you'd recommend those programs be designed or what they should look like?

[Norman Lee]

There are a couple of options from the municipal perspective. We're quite familiar with stimulus-type funding, where the federal, provincial and municipal governments all contribute, so we'd be in favour of those as long as all three parties agree.

There are also direct grants, perhaps as part of a climate change plan. We've taken advantage of some of those in the past, so those work for us.

My understanding on the private side is that for those service providers to make investments, they are pretty receptive to some tax programs that incentivize investments.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you, Mr. Baker. Your time is up.

Ms. Pauzé, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

I don't want to lose some of my time by pointing this out, but the interpreter tells us that Mr. Lee's microphone was too close.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Yes, I noticed the same thing.

Mr. Lee, please raise your microphone a little.

You have the floor, Ms. Pauzé.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Thank you.

My question is for the Honourable Minister of Energy for Alberta.

You talked at length about the fact that other countries have less stringent standards. Ms. Wallis, from Oceana Canada, was saying that the European Union and other countries have increasingly stringent standards. I was wondering if we should compare ourselves to some of the African countries or to China, for example. But I think that's sort of a flawed comparison.

You also said that recycling is a provincial responsibility. I totally agree with that, but Mr. Goetz said that the targets are higher now in Ontario, Quebec and Manitoba. Shouldn't all the other provinces have higher targets, when Alberta seems to be leaning towards standards that are lower than those of other countries?

According to the Alberta Plastics Recycling Association, Alberta manufacturers are not required to contribute financially to recovery. The Recycling Council of Alberta says Alberta will continue to be the largest per capita producer of this waste in the country if nothing changes.

Could you talk about the possibility of that changing? In that regard, you are talking about working with industry, but also with those other organizations I just mentioned.

[Sonya Savage]

I'm sorry. I'm having some technical difficulties here, and I think it's because I'm on a phone for the translation feed. I didn't hear a thing in either language, so I missed....

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

We're having problems. It's obviously not your fault.

You can continue, Ms. Pauzé, but maybe you'll have to go to someone else, because Ms. Savage can't hear the interpretation.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Mr. Chair, I have a suggestion. Perhaps the translator who translated into English simultaneously with Monique could just pose the question in English to the minister.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Yes, that's a good idea.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

I don't know how we do that technically. Does the interpreter just cut in, or how does that work?

Madam Clerk, is it possible to have the interpreter—