Environment Committee on Nov. 23rd, 2020

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Welcome to the seventh meeting of the Standing Committee on Environment and Sustainable Development. This is the third meeting of our study on zero-emission vehicles. This is a hot topic right now. In addition to general trends towards cleaner energy, as we know, last week, the Quebec government made quite an important announcement on zero-emission vehicles.

This meeting is in a hybrid format. As you know, you can use the language of your choice. When you aren't speaking, please mute your microphone to avoid any miscommunication.

Today we have six witnesses. Each witness will get five minutes for opening statements and then we'll go right into the Q and A sessions.

We have with us Suzanne Goldberg, director of public policy from ChargePoint, and Maxime Charron, president of LeadingAhead Energy. From Siemans Canada Limited, we have Faisal Kazi, president and CEO, Rocco Delvecchio, vice-president of government affairs, and Theresa Cooke, head of strategy and e-mobility. We also have Cedric Smith, analyst at the Pembina Institute, Angelo DiCaro, director of research at Unifor, and Patrick Bateman, interim president of WaterPower Canada.

We'll go in the order that I just read out. That means we'll start with Ms. Goldberg for five minutes, please.

[Suzanne Goldberg, Director of Public Policy, Canada, ChargePoint]

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair, and members of the committee. Thank you for having me.

ChargePoint is one of the world's largest electric vehicle charging networks. ChargePoint provides a fully integrated EV charging solution that includes a portfolio of hardware, software and services that support consumer and fleet charging needs at home, work, around town and in depots.

ChargePoint has a significant and growing presence in Canada. We work with a network of over 40 partners to distribute, and we work with hundreds of companies to install and maintain our charging solutions across Canada. These partners range from electrical equipment providers like Graybar Canada and Sonepar Canada, to small and medium-sized businesses like Arntjen Clean Energy Solutions, Virtuoso Energy and Waleco. We work with these partners to sell solutions to businesses, municipalities, utilities and fleets from St. John's, Newfoundland, to Prince George, B.C.

Canada's EV charging footprint has grown significantly as sales have risen. Today there are over 12,000 places to charge, and likely more than double that amount in the homes of Canadians, workplaces and fleet depots. The growing footprint not only establishes a fuel distribution network that will deliver significant emission reductions in one of Canada's largest emitting sectors, but also represents investment and job growth. For example, the B.C. government reports that there are over 250 companies in the province's EV sector, contributing 6,000 full-time equivalent jobs and $600 million to the provincial GDP.

Canada's EV charging sector employs trade and skilled workers from across the country, including civil and electrical contractors, engineers, sales and distribution professionals, logistics personnel and utility employees. One of our channel partners in B.C. estimates that the average charging station installation requires between 188 and 372 job hours, and between five and 10 different job functions per installation, for level two and fast charging installations, respectively.

These numbers are also in line with data we've collected for other installations across North America. The potential for growth in this sector is significant, because of growth in the global market and Canada's target for 100% zero-emission vehicle sales by 2040. Domestically, this potential is partially dependent on federal policy action. On the vehicle side, this includes policies like ZEV standards, vehicle emissions regulations and vehicle incentives. On the charging side, this includes measures like infrastructure incentives, clean fuel standards, building codes and addressing regulatory barriers.

Canada has already made progress by offering funding mechanisms to match private capital and accelerate consumer and fleet charging. It has also made progress on the regulatory side with ongoing changes to Canada's electrical code, most recently with a provision to enable the use of energy management features that reduce the costs for charging station owners.

The next challenge we face as an industry is enabling energy-based fees for charging services. Currently, owners of charging stations must sell charging services by the minute, even though different EVs draw different amounts of electricity over the same period of time. For example, when charged per minute, a Chevrolet Bolt driver is billed the same amount as an Audi e-tron driver although the Audi draws 1.7 times more power over a 30-minute fast charging session.

Energy-based pricing provides more transparency to drivers and more transparent cost-recovery to station owners. Enabling energy-based pricing requires that the meters embedded in these charging stations be certified by Measurement Canada and that station owners be subject to obligations under our Electricity and Gas Inspection Act and regulations.

The act and regulations were not developed with EV charging stations in mind, and therefore, a unique approach is needed to ensure that we have timely enablement of energy-based pricing in a manner that reflects the reality of charging station operations, requirements in other jurisdictions and demand for pricing options. We hope the recently initiated Measurement Canada process achieves these objectives.

Thank you for the opportunity to appear before this committee. I look forward to your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you very much.

We'll go now to Mr. Charron.

[Maxime Charron, President, LeadingAhead Energy]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for inviting us today to share our industry knowledge with the committee for the zero-emission vehicle study.

LeadingAhead Energy is a Canadian company operating in the electric vehicle charging infrastructure industry across Canada and recently in the United States. We believe in providing innovative solutions disturbing the industry status quo by providing advisories on industry best practices and by supporting open network solutions offering flexibility, future-proofing and market competition.

As a result, we have worked on multiple level two and level three charging infrastructure projects, providing and consulting on turnkey solutions and assisting with the entire process from government grant applications and project management to supplying and installing the charging equipment.

As you are engaging with all industry stakeholders, from our experience the significant lack of education on EVs in general is clear, from range anxiety to the knowledge of existing charging infrastructure and the misunderstanding of the EV life cycle, all of which contribute to the spread of misinformation. Further, EVs still come with a higher price tag today. Unfortunately, lending companies do not factor in the savings of EVs for financing.

Time for charging is also a major concern before buying an EV. Several utility companies and other private investors have done incredible work to deploy DCFC chargers from coast to coast. We consider this stage one of deployment, since the vast majority are only at a 50-kilowatt charging speed and are equipped with only one or two units on site. With longer-range batteries, one to two hours of fast charging is now required on the 50 kilowatts, assuming there's no lineup.

We are now on the second wave of DCFC deployment, bringing high-power charging ranging from 100 kilowatts to 350 kilowatts, with the capability of charging multiple vehicles at the same time at a faster rate, thereby reducing charging times for long-range EVs.

LeadingAhead Energy has been working on many charging infrastructure projects using open charge point protocols, or OCPP. We believe this is essential to create market competition and industry innovation, avoid stranded assets and reduce costs. There is also something to be said about the importance of flexibility and future-proofing of the equipment that is using government funding in the growing market, adding industry players instead of potentially creating monopolies.

Contrary to some beliefs, OCPP is not an inferior protocol, as we have experienced 100% uptime in our latest project. Following Europe's lead a few years ago, OCPP 1.6-J has been added as a requirement in the latest CleanBC public charging rebate program, which is an important step towards interoperability between charging stations and network providers, an initiative that other government programs should follow.

The clean fuel standard, or CFS, is definitely one of the most important and unknown pieces of legislation to help achieve the goal of reducing Canadian carbon emissions. LeadingAhead, like many others in the industry, is very supportive of the new CFS format allowing the generation of carbon credits from EV charging stations.

It will be important to ensure that the credits are being returned to the investors in the projects, and not the network providers as is written in its current format. This would help to incentivize investors—mostly real estate managers and utilities—to reinvest the proceeds in the further expansion of charging infrastructure. By having network providers receiving these credits, we are running a high risk of further creating a market monopoly by shifting the buying power from the investors’ hands into the network providers’ hands, as network providers typically do not invest in EV charging infrastructure projects.

LeadingAhead Energy is grateful to have had the opportunity to share its market knowledge with the committee. The benefits of electrifying Canada's transportation will come not only from electric vehicles but from those in the industry as a whole who support the entire life cycle of an EV, from resource extraction to recycling, repurposing, engineering, consulting and so on. There are tremendous numbers of opportunities in the electrification of transportation, and government regulations as well as incentives will be a major player in determining the success of Canada on the national and international fronts.

Thank you very much for your time.

Thank you for your attention.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you, Mr. Charron.

Mr. Kazi, the floor is now yours.

[Faisal Kazi, President and Chief Executive Officer, Siemens Canada Limited]

Good afternoon.

First I would like to thank the chair and the committee members for the invitation to Siemens to testify on this very important topic.

My name is Faisal Kazi. I am the CEO of Siemens Canada. Today I have with me Mr. Rocco Delvecchio, the vice-president of government affairs, and Theresa Cooke, the vice-president of business development for Siemens Canada. Theresa is specifically responsible for developing our e-mobility business, so her participation is very relevant here.

For those who don't know, Siemens is one of the largest engineering and technology companies. We operate in more than 190 countries. We have been in Canada since 1912 providing solutions in almost all Canadian sectors in the fields of electrification, automation and digitalization. Our affiliates and Siemens employ around 5,000 people across Canada in more than 40 offices.

Canada has a very ambitious and challenging goal to be a net-zero economy by 2050. In this context, we must say that the greening or the decarbonization of the transportation system will play a very important role as the emissions from this sector are roughly one quarter of the total of Canadian greenhouse gas emissions. Thus, the move to zero-emissions vehicles is central to greening the transportation sector. We believe that hydrogen fuel vehicles may play a role in the long term, but the most viable short-term option comes from electrification.

To electrify the transportation sector effectively, we would need to take a complete system perspective and ensure that all required value-chain elements scale up together. In our briefing, we have outlined the value chain for delivering transportation, how it is impacted by electrification and the top challenges that need to be addressed in order to bring electrification of transportation to scale in Canada.

I'd like to take this opportunity to highlight a few of the elements that I feel are important. The first one is the charging infrastructure. The charging infrastructure and the electrical infrastructure behind the charging infrastructure must be a forethought and not an afterthought. We believe we must put in place a robust, efficient and intelligent charging infrastructure, both to ensure the reliability of the critical transportation systems but also to optimize the business cases. This is extremely important when it comes to large-scale fleet electrification like public transit or trucking fleets. We welcome the leadership of the Canada Infrastructure Bank for putting mechanisms in place to help finance this critical component.

The second element I'd like to raise is about making this infrastructure intelligent. We believe that charging infrastructure must be intelligent, which means it has to be connected to platforms that allow them to be optimized and integrated into the grid, what we call a smart grid. Dynamic optimization of charging will enable both fleet owners and electrical utilities to manage and distribute loads, charge in off-peak hours and lower the overall cost of electrification.

To maximize efficiency and reliability, charging depots must be optimized as connected grid energy assets. The depots can be electrified using microgrids that are powered by distributed renewable energy systems such as solar panels and batteries. Such an approach will not only reduce the overall costs in the system, but the depots can really act as resiliency blocks in the electric grid, which is becoming increasingly vulnerable as weather-related events like ice storms are increasing.

In order to have intelligent infrastructure, everything has to be connected. Like all connected systems, cybersecurity will play a very important role to ensure the integrity and the security of the operations but also to ensure that the transactions are also secured. This would be a key element to ensure that all these transactions, operational transactions and financial transactions, are secured.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

We have maybe another 15 or 20 seconds. We have passed the time, but we can extend it a bit.

[Faisal Kazi]

Sure.

The third element is around the strategy, what kind of strategy the government is planning to do. We believe there is a lot of potential here, especially with the amount of technology available, for example “charging as a service” or “vehicle to grid”, and in fact, innovation around the business models.

We must point out that Canada has an edge. We have vehicle manufacturers like New Flyer, Nova Bus, etc., and this gives us a unique opportunity to lead in this sector. We believe that a coordinated approach between the different federal ministries—Transport Canada, Infrastructure Canada and NRCan—can really help secure a leadership role.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

There will be time during questions and answers to delve into the ideas you presented a little bit more.

We'll go now to Mr. Smith, from the Pembina Institute.

[Cedric Smith, Analyst, The Pembina Institute]

Mr. Chair and committee members, thank you for the invitation to take part in your consultations on zero-emission vehicles.

My name is Cedric Smith. I am an analyst with The Pembina Institute, a clean-energy think tank with offices in Ontario, Alberta and British Columbia. The Pembina Institute leads the urban delivery solutions initiative, a national network of businesses and organizations working to modernize urban freight operations in Canadian cities.

Today I am here to talk to you about ZEVs and Canada's climate commitments. Under the Paris Agreement, Canada has committed to reducing GHG emissions by 30% below 2005 levels as of 2030. More recently, Canada has set a target of net zero by 2050. Only last week, Canada introduced Bill C-12, an act respecting transparency and accountability in Canada's efforts to achieve net-zero greenhouse gas emissions by the year 2050. Reducing emissions from transportation, which make up a quarter of Canada’s total emissions and have increased significantly over the past two decades, is necessary to meet these targets.

Pembina views an accelerated transition to ZEVs as key to Canada's decarbonizing its transportation sector. Recent analysis by the International Energy Agency indicates that achieving net-zero greenhouse gas emissions as of 2050 would require that over 50% of passenger cars sold be electric as of 2030. Canada has set a non-binding target of ZEVs making up 10% of new light-duty vehicles sold as of 2025, 30% as of 2030 and 100% as of 2040. Without further action, Canada is unlikely to meet those targets. Currently, ZEVs make up only about 3% of the market.

There are three major barriers to further ZEV adoption in Canada: high upfront purchase prices, insufficient charging and refuelling infrastructure, and insufficient supply. Targeted policy action can help alleviate these barriers.

First is purchase incentives. ZEVs have higher upfront purchase prices than traditional internal combustion engine vehicles. Estimates by the ICCT, for example, indicate that the differential is $10,000 for short-range cars and $27,000 for long-range SUVs.

Canada's iZEV program provides point-of-sale incentives for the purchase or lease of zero-emission vehicles, with a maximum incentive of $5,000. The program has been allocated $300 million for three years, beginning in 2019-20. Uptake in year one of the program suggests that iZEV could run out of money in year two without additional funding. iZEV should be topped up by $150 million in the next federal budget.

Second is funding for charging and refuelling infrastructure. “Range anxiety” refers to a fear of owners of internal combustion engine vehicles that ZEVs will run out of power on a trip. Such fear is often noted as a barrier to ZEV ownership. It is also important that ZEV adopters be able to charge their vehicles at home. The majority of early adopters have home access to charging infrastructure.

Unfortunately, Canada’s public ZEV-charging network remains limited with under 4,500 charging stations, comparing unfavourably with over 12,000 gasoline stations. In addition, about one-third of Canadians live in multi-unit residential buildings, such as apartment buildings or “garage orphans”—dwellings with no access to garages or driveways—and face unique difficulties with home charging.

Canada’s zero-emission vehicle infrastructure program, ZEVIP, has been funded with $130 million over five years, beginning in 2019, to fund the deployment of electric vehicle infrastructure in public settings, including on-street and parking areas, as well as for multi-unit residential buildings. To scale up the program and increase the funding contribution, ZEVIP should be topped up by $300 million in the next federal budget.

Third is adoption of a zero-emission vehicle standard. Canada has an issue with electric vehicle supply. According to recent research, only one in three dealers in Canada has at least one plug-in electric vehicle in stock. This figure decreases to less than one in five for dealers outside of Ontario, British Columbia and Quebec.

The implementation of a light-duty zero-emission vehicle standard would help increase supply in Canada. Such a standard would require that an increasing portion of auto manufacturer vehicle sales be zero-emission. Quebec, which has a mandate in place, makes up about 57% of Canada's plug-in electric vehicle inventory. Since the adoption of Quebec’s ZEV act in 2016, the percentage of ZEV models available in California that are also available in Quebec increased from 66% to 92%.

It should be noted that, in addition to greenhouse gas reduction benefits, increased ZEV sales will also create economic benefits for Canada as manufacturers benefit from an expanded domestic market. Globally, the majority of electric vehicles—80%—are produced in the same region they are sold.

Canada has, in the past, lagged behind in the transition to an electrified transportation future. In 2018, for example, the electric share of Canada’s vehicle production was 80% lower than the global average. Recently, however, there had been announcements of auto-manufacturing investments in EV manufacturing, including $1.8 billion to retool the Ford Oakville Assembly Complex to produce battery electric vehicles. Expanded Canadian ZEV markets will only accelerate this positive momentum.

Targeted policy, including purchase incentives and funding for charging and refuelling infrastructure and a zero-emission vehicle standard, can help increase zero-emission vehicle sales and help Canada to meet its climate targets. In doing so, economic benefit will be derived for Canadians as well. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you, Mr. Smith.

Now we go to Mr. DiCaro.

[Angelo DiCaro, Director of Research, Unifor]

Thank you very much.

Good afternoon, Chair and members of the committee. It's a pleasure to have been invited to speak with you today and to be presenting alongside my distinguished panellists.

I am Angelo DiCaro, the national director of research for Unifor. We are Canada's largest labour union in the private sector. We represent about 315,000 members across nearly all major sectors of the economy from coast to coast. Our union is also the predominant voice for workers in the Canadian auto sector, with more than 40,000 members involved in vehicle and powertrain assembly, component parts manufacturing and also working in auto dealerships.

The past months have placed a spotlight on the Canadian auto assembly sector, there is no doubt. Coming out of contract talks with the Detroit three, our union helped secure two groundbreaking investments in EVs, the first of their kind in Canada.

The first, at Ford, involves the complete transition of our assembly complex in Oakville, Ontario. In 2025 that plant will transition to become the first all-electric, mass-production vehicle assembly facility in Canadian history. It's a signal that Canada, as an auto-making nation, is still in the game.

That announcement was followed by our deal at FCA, via Chrysler, where the company committed to introducing a new multi-energy vehicle platform to the Windsor assembly plant. Once that's complete in 2024, this new global platform will have the capacity to assemble cars, trucks and utility vehicles powered by both battery electric and plug-in hybrid powertrains, which is unlike any platform currently in North America.

Underlying these investments is a strong collective agreement that raises wages, improves working conditions and even advances the union's goals on matters of racial justice in the workplace.

As great as all this is, this was last month's storyline. What matters now is what happens next. One of our union's longest-standing grievances is that Canada has lacked a coherent auto sector development strategy. This directionless approach to industry building has failed. As you all know, demand for zero-emission vehicles, while currently a small fraction of the market, is on the rise. Analysts expect light-duty sales of EVs will make up nearly 60% of new car sales globally by 2040. New EV assembly capacity will help Canada meet some of this demand, and that's good, but simply not enough.

Our ambition can't be just to play a role. Our ambition must to be to lead. Without a coordinated national strategy that encourages both consumer adoption and scaled-up domestic production across the supply chain—we can certainly find ways to get Canadians into zero-emission cars—we'll just risk losing the associated economic benefit as production moves elsewhere.

An effective strategy has to synchronize vehicle sales incentives with demand-side infrastructure programs, including charging stations and incentives to expand the consumer market. It must also involve careful supply chain mapping to identify gaps and localize investment targets. It must include content rules for fleet purchases and vehicle afterlife requirements, linking disassembly and recycling to job creation.

All of these efforts have to synchronize with progressive trade policy to meet Canada's sustainability goals, including measures that disincentivize imports of GHG-intensive products and that attach strict environmental and labour conditions on goods entering the Canadian market.

What I have outlined here is just some starting-point suggestions. These strategy discussions have to be much bigger. However we approach this, governments have to understand they have a role to play.

Contributions confirmed by both the federal and provincial governments to new Ford, FCA and also GM investments are a positive step. That's the price of coffee in a world where lucrative investments like this are in short supply. The spillover effects on job creation and economic activity are almost incalculable. Two months ago, Canada was playing on the margins in this EV race. Now we are charging to the front of the line. Now is the time we have to pull together strategically to craft policy that locks in this momentum and builds for the future.

Thanks very much, and I look forward to your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you, Mr. DiCaro.

We'll go now to Mr. Bateman.

[Patrick Bateman, Interim President, WaterPower Canada]

Good afternoon.

Thank you, Mr. Chair and committee members, and Mr. Roger, the clerk of the committee, for inviting WaterPower Canada to appear as a witness for this study on zero-emission vehicles.

I also want to thank you for your dedication and perseverance in supporting the well-being of your constituents during this pandemic.

WaterPower Canada is the national trade association that represents the producers of hydroelectricity and their suppliers of goods and services.

Despite the tremendous challenges that the COVID-19 pandemic has presented, the water power sector has overseen the reliable operation of the more than five hundred generation stations across Canada. We are proud to be supporting Canada’s pandemic response by powering our hospitals, communication networks and supply chains.

Canada is a global water power leader. Our sector has powered our economy for more than one hundred years. Water power is central to our energy security, producing 60% of our total electricity. That makes our grid one of the cleanest in the world.

Today, our sector also represents 90% of Canada’s total renewable electricity supply and almost 60% of Canada’s gross domestic product from renewable and alternative energy supply. Canada is in the top 10 countries worldwide for the number of water power jobs. More than half of all the renewable energy jobs in Canada are in the water power sector.

With regard to this study, the previous witnesses both today and in previous weeks raised many topics that our sector supports. Firstly, Canada is one of the few countries in the world uniquely positioned to move toward and beyond a 90% non-emitting electricity supply. Leveraging this clean electricity advantage to power zero-emissions vehicles will bring significant environmental, economic, public health and consumer benefits.

Secondly, the federal government has an integral role to play in supporting the development of the national ZEV market and supply chain, including with a suite of available policy options that will provide the best outcomes when introduced in complementarity.

Thirdly, we are already building momentum. The electricity sector is making investments in anticipation of demand due to electrification. Automakers are building ZEVs and components in Canada. The opportunities go far beyond cars and chargers to metals and minerals. Charging technology companies are growing, creating intellectual property and building a new industry in Canada.

This demand growth from the electrification of transportation, combined with stringent and stable long-term climate policy, is critical for my sector to maximize our investments in the coming years. These potential investments represent tens of billions of dollars, tens of thousands of new jobs and the avoidance of hundreds of millions of tonnes of greenhouse gas emissions annually.

Investments made by our sector in the refurbishment and redevelopment of our existing water power generation fleet provides additional electricity generation and storage capacity at a very low unit cost and with a minimal incremental environmental footprint.

Investments to improve flexibility in these units and sites, and in new transmission infrastructure, pumped-storage hydro and green hydrogen projects, can further facilitate the reliable integration of variable renewable energy resources, such as wind and solar. This will be especially important in regions where coal is being phased out. Water stored in our reservoirs can be the battery that balances supply and demand.

Greenhouse gas emissions need to decline rapidly in order for us to exceed our 2030 Paris Agreement goals and achieve net zero by 2050. Building on our strengths, leveraging existing competitive advantages and creating the right conditions for investment will support these objectives.

Canada’s clean electricity advantage and the electrification of zero-emissions vehicles can, and must, be a central component of our climate action and economic recovery.

Thank you again for the opportunity to appear. I look forward to addressing any questions that the committee may have.

Thank you for your attention.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you, Mr. Bateman. That was very informative. We have a lot of work to do.

We'll now proceed to the question and answer period to learn more about the topic.

We'll start with a six-minute round of questions.

Mr. Albas, the floor is yours.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I certainly want to thank all of our witnesses for giving part of their time and expertise to our committee today. This has been a very interesting study thus far, and I appreciate your efforts.

I want to start with Unifor and Mr. DiCaro. Thank you for the work you do in making sure that Canadians are working. I'd like to ask you a question in regard to the comment you made that there needs to be more thought put into a strategic vision for the car industry in Canada. Could you elaborate a little bit more on that?

[Angelo DiCaro]

I would say that we can encapsulate our approach to industry building in the auto sector, probably since the late 1990s, when the former 1965 Auto Pact was dismantled. That was an interesting trade agreement we had. It was the only trade agreement of its kind that actually mandated investments coming into Canada. If there were transformations, changes and technological developments in the industry, we would naturally be on the cusp of that. Because we live right beside the U.S., that's the market we mostly sell to, so whether we liked it or not, we would have auto investment coming in.

This is not the case today. It's seems that we've been more inclined to sit back and try to engage in a much more laissez-faire approach to how the auto industry was going to evolve. We've seen that not work out too well. We've seen us go from the fifth-largest automaker in the world to now somewhere around 12th. We've seen production decline by 40%, and we've seen jobs decimated across communities.

In place of a structure like the Auto Pact, we need to contemplate other policy ideas that go beyond just having a bucket of money at the ready. It's very important to be playing a role, but it needs more. In some of the cases I have listed, we can go through a whole series of policy ideas about how we can be more engaged—as a government, interconnected with provincial governments, and so forth.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Many in our caucus, particularly Colin Carrie, among others, have really impressed upon members of Parliament like me.... I'm from British Columbia, and in some cases people will ask me, “Why is it in Ottawa that they're only talking about cars and steel and aluminum? Why aren't they talking about forestry?”

I say that it is important for all of these things, but there's one area I would like your feedback on. You talked about not just having money where we're sitting back, that we should be looking at where the opportunities are in research and development and where we figure in it. Making sure we have clean and cheap electricity could be a competitive advantage. We've lost that tremendously in Ontario, I understand. Also, in my area, I have two copper mines. When I go and talk to the people who work at the mines, they say they'd like to see more emphasis put on their products in electric vehicles, because there's twice as much copper in an electric vehicle than there is in just a regular car.

Would this involve talking about not just how we can benefit at your end in terms of that value add, but also how we can go soup to nuts, building off of our resource sector, which has put a lot of food on tables in my neck of the woods, in addition to working with you for that next part of the value chain?

[Angelo DiCaro]

Absolutely. I really couldn't agree more. The strategic position we're in, just to build on the comments I started with, is quite remarkable. As other panellists have talked about, we're rich in emissions-free energy, and at the same time we're rich in the resources that are in high demand for these products. We have a well-established industry, with skills, with networks and with infrastructure for building the cars.

Take groups like the APMA. I'm not sure if they have presented to this committee yet, but they are running a project called “Arrow”. It showcases the ingenuity of Canadian parts suppliers to build a prototype electric vehicle strictly with Canadian suppliers. We have everything we need here. It's a matter of putting those pieces together strategically. I think that's something our union is looking at.

I have not seen any push-back on that from any government officials I've spoken to, so that's a good thing. It also seems like even members across the aisle share that same view. I think it's time we really get down to it and figure out how to move this forward carefully.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Bateman, obviously there is an abundance of hydroelectricity in my province, as there is in Quebec. There are some new projects that are either being built right now...whether it be to power Canadian clean LNG or, in terms of nuclear, small modular reactors, etc., as another choice. I know you're not going to want to speak about SMRs, but could you maybe speak about some of the opportunities for hydro development where you think they could be sustained or there could be some refurbishments to help build on the green electrical grid that we already have?

[Patrick Bateman]

First and foremost, our existing fleet is where significant opportunity lies. The average age of a hydro power generation station in Canada is more than 50 years, so many of them are now due for investments for life extension. During that time, there are opportunities to improve efficiency and performance at capacity, both for generation and storage. Those opportunities exist throughout Canada, and they're very considerable.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

We'll continue with Mr. Longfield, who will be sharing his time with Ms. O'Connell.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

I'd like to continue on Mr. Albas's line of questioning with Mr. Bateman.

I've done a lot of work in hydroelectricity in Manitoba. Quebec and B.C., of course, are leaders. You mentioned the transition from coal. Saskatchewan and Alberta still have some plants that need to be phased-out over time.

If we go to zero-emission vehicles, don't have a clean grid and are transferring the generation of power from emitting sources, could you comment on how important it is to not just count the emissions at the tailpipe but also the emissions coming from power plants?

[Patrick Bateman]

Presently, the life-cycle emissions of an electric vehicle will be less than that of a gasoline vehicle anywhere in Canada, regardless of grid intensity. However, that being said, in provinces such as Manitoba, Quebec and B.C. that have been mentioned already, those emissions are significantly less, and in many cases will be negated within the first several months of driving.

Both Alberta and Saskatchewan are on a track to significantly decarbonize. Maximizing our GHG emissions will involve two things: number one, greening the grid driving out emissions; and number two, using that clean electricity to electrify transport but also buildings and industry.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

I'd like go to Mr. Kazi from Siemens. We know the influence that Siemens has had over the engineering developments in grid structures and smart grids. Guelph has a pilot project where we have a smart grid with Alectra Utilities where you're able to sell power from your charger into the network using blockchain technology, but we don't have regulations around that yet.

Mr. Kazi, you mentioned the fleets, and the importance of converting fleets. We do have a policy in Canada around 100% writedown on fleets that are purchasing zero-emission vehicles, but you also mentioned buses. Again, Guelph has 65 electric buses coming online. We do need the smart grid behind that.

How does Germany compare in terms of the advancements that it has been able to make, and whether those have resulted in zero-emission vehicles being more prevalent in Germany?