Environment Committee on Nov. 23rd, 2020

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

Thank you.

Do you see this being an ongoing cost for research and development? Would there be an opportunity, at the very least, for governmental supports or programs to help point the private sector in the direction of investments and things like that, and then what sorts of supports? Ultimately it's in Canada's cybersecurity interest if vehicles, charging stations and, basically, secondary types of equipment or industries are protected. Has there been any discussion around the partnership with the government on this?

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Answer briefly, please.

[Faisal Kazi]

I always say that we have to take a holistic approach as we ramp up the electric charging. There is discussion with the government. The government is supporting it, but more works needs to be done in order to do it safely.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you very much.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

Thank you, and thanks, Yvan, for the time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

We have come to the scheduled end point of our meeting.

First of all, I would have to ask the witnesses if they could stay longer, but is there a desire to go on a little longer? Okay, what about one more round?

Can the witnesses stay for one more round? We will be done by 5:50 p.m.

[Faisal Kazi]

Yes, I can.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Can everyone else?

[Maxime Charron]

Yes. I'm good here.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Okay.

Please say no and we will go by process of elimination. I don't hear any noes. We will continue.

For the third round, we have Mr. Albas for five minutes.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Thank you again, Mr. Chair, and thank you again to our witnesses.

I'm going to start with you, Ms. Goldberg. There is obviously a tremendous amount of integration in North America, whether we're talking about Mexico, Canada or the United States, in terms of our auto integration and in terms of the cars we drive, and obviously we also import several different kinds of cars.

What kind of harmonization in terms of standards do you think is helpful for electric vehicle adoption? Do you have any thoughts on that?

[Suzanne Goldberg]

With respect to electric vehicle charging and specifically to regulations around measurement and how we enable energy-based pricing, as I mentioned in my opening remarks, Measurement Canada has engaged in a process to help enable energy-based pricing that will involve two things: looking at how we certify the meters inside charging stations and the regulatory requirements for charging station owners.

On the side of the technical requirements for certifying those chargers, there is precedent in the U.S. A federal, non-regulatory agency has set guidelines for those technical specifications. California has been the first state to adopt it. As manufacturers in this space, we're typically operating, as you alluded to, in a North American market, so we would encourage harmonization as much as possible to look at what the U.S. has done and see how we can integrate that into our Canadian regulation for measurement of charging station meters.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

I know that there was originally a body of both American and Canadian officials that would speak to try to further harmonize, based on the fact that we're often making these high-quality vehicles but then exporting them to the United States or other places.

Can you go a little further as to the issue specifically with weights and measures?

[Suzanne Goldberg]

First of all, the Electricity and Gas Inspection Act, as my colleagues from the Canadian Electricity Association referred to in a past session, was not designed with charging stations in mind. There's the technical side where we need specifications for how we certify those meters. Having those meters certified by Measurement Canada means that we can use those devices to enable energy-based charging, and that's good for transparency for drivers when they're charged for what they use. On the station owner side, they have transparency in terms of their cost.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Right now, what is the average consumer not getting? Why is the system deficient right now because of that?

[Suzanne Goldberg]

Right now, station owners are limited to charging per minute, and because vehicles draw different amounts of power over the same period of time, we're essentially having a cross-subsidization situation. Two vehicles might pull in. The station might have the same level of power, but over a 30-minute period of time, one vehicle that has a bigger battery might be drawing more. If we're charging them the same price per minute, we're essentially cross-subsidizing and, as the station owner, you don't have a really good idea of what your costs are to cover because you just have a flat fee per minute.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Thank you for explaining that.

Please continue. Before I dragged you into talking about the consumer point, you were going somewhere else.

[Suzanne Goldberg]

I was just noting that, in addition to the technical side, there are the regulatory aspects of the Electricity and Gas Inspection Act that have obligations that make sense for one-way flow of energy from meters owned by the utility and individual homes, but now we have station owners who might be a small pizzeria or a small local grocery store. We need to make sure that the obligations within the act and regulation protect consumers first and foremost, but also reflect the reality of who owns it, and we're not introducing new barriers to the critical investment in charging infrastructure that we need to meet our goals.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

That's a really interesting question, because there are different people getting involved in this business. It was raised earlier by Madame Pauzé that perhaps there needs to be regulations on gas stations. Is that really a way for us to consider thinking about these, or should we be a little more open to other free market responses?

[Suzanne Goldberg]

I think it's a mixed approach. We're looking at a new paradigm of fuelling. People don't drive to a location to fuel. They fuel where they park. Gas stations along highway corridors have that infrastructure. We also need to look within city contexts, our homes and our workplaces, where people are dwelling the longest. It's a combination of fast charging and slower charging. If you're parked at home or your workplace for eight hours or four hours, a level two is sufficient. We need to have a mix and look at all the mechanisms to ensure that we have infrastructure in all those locations.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you very much.

Go ahead, Mr. Schiefke.

[Peter Schiefke, Liberal, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank our guests for taking the time to join us today.

As recently as November 2, the Canadian and Quebec governments announced a contribution of nearly $3.6 million for Propulsion Québec, Quebec's cluster for electric and smart transportation, to support innovation in the mining sector.

The funding will support the design and development of an electric propulsion system for a 40-tonne mining truck, a battery solution and fast charging infrastructure suitable for mining operations. The project could prevent the emission of over 220 tonnes of greenhouse gases a year.

Could the witnesses elaborate on how the heavy-duty vehicle sector could play a role in reducing greenhouse gases through electrification?

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Who are you asking?

[Peter Schiefke, Liberal, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

I'm asking the representative of the Pembina Institute.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Mr. Smith, the floor is yours.