Environment Committee on Nov. 25th, 2020

[Daniel Breton]

Actually, there are two very interesting companies in Canada that work on recycling batteries. Now they have technologies that can recycle up to 95% of the components. That's very good, first of all, and one thing you cannot recycle is oil. Once it's burned, that's it.

There's a real market for that. It's coming to fruition, but right now one of the problems that we have with recycling is very simple. There are not enough batteries. Batteries last longer than we expected. Batteries for electric vehicles are either warrantied between eight to ten years or between 160,000 to 240,000 kilometres. They last a lot longer than we originally thought. My first hybrid vehicle that I bought 20 years ago still has the original battery in it.

[Raj Saini, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Thank you for those remarks, Mr. Breton.

I'd like to move to Mr. Pocard, because I want to get a little bit more insight from you regarding hydrogen. You said it's complementary to electric cars, but what I've read is that the production of hydrogen is still very expensive and can be cost prohibitive.

What can we do to bring the cost down so that it could be another alternative to electric cars?

[Nicolas Pocard]

That's a very good question.

I think we need to separate the vehicle from the energy source, that is, the the vehicle from the fuel cell. It is all about manufacturing. Volume will bring down the price and all of a sudden, the price of a fuel-cell engine will be comparable to manufacturing, or cheaper than manufacturing, a diesel engine.

Your question addresses the energy. With electric, you directly use electricity to recharge a battery. In a fuel-cell electric vehicle, you use energy carrier hydrogen to store the energy on board the vehicle.

Hydrogen can be produced two ways. Today I would say 95% of the hydrogen produced worldwide comes from a derivative of natural gas, and there are production plants in Canada here. This way, you don't reduce those emissions, so you have a carbon-intense hydrogen. The challenge is to be able to reduce that intensity by doing carbon sequestration. In Canada today, you have companies—and it's already done in Alberta—where you can take a natural gas stream, remove the carbon component during the production of hydrogen and store that or use it in the industrial feed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you very much.

[Nicolas Pocard]

You can reach cost-parity with diesel.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Your remarks are very interesting from a technical standpoint.

We will now begin the third round of questions.

Go ahead, Mr. Godin.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Breton, you may have an opportunity to answer the question I left open a little earlier.

My next question is for Mr. Adams.

Mr. Adams, let's imagine that the government decides tomorrow morning to stop subsidizing the sector of the industry devoted to producing zero-emission vehicles. What would the players in that industry do?

[David Adams]

I think the answer to that is what would Canadians do, and I think Ontario provided a good example. When the Ford government rescinded the subsidies, electric vehicle sales fell 45%. That's what happens.

If those vehicles are sitting on lots, then I suppose at some point they may or may not sell, depending on how interested people are in purchasing them at their real cost.

The reality, though, is that if there weren't incentives in place, probably.... It's not the manufacturers, but the dealers, who will order and sell what customers want to buy.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

I have another question.

If I wanted to order a car in Quebec or British Columbia tomorrow morning, I'd have to put my name on a waiting list. The waiting time is approximately two, three, four or six months. There's a market for that. I think consumers have taken a big step.

What troubles me in this process is that the automobile industry is asking for help. You have to invest in order to do business. The industry has done that in the past, but I'm convinced it did so because it anticipated a business opportunity. Consequently, instead of assisting consumers or car manufacturers, perhaps we should invest in an awareness campaign to inform people about the environmental impact of automobile production instead of giving money to those producers.

Would that be a feasible suggestion?

How would members of your organization perceive that?

[David Adams]

We would support that wholeheartedly. If you look at a stool with three legs, one leg is incentives, another leg is infrastructure and the third leg is a broad educational campaign. I think it has been proven time and time again that we need more education about electric and hydrogen vehicles.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Mr. Breton, we know that Canada has regions where it's very cold. With the advent of large numbers of electric vehicles, is the power grid ready to respond to increased demand in winter, if a power shortage occurs or the temperature falls to -30?

[Daniel Breton]

That's an interesting question.

People don't realize that increasing numbers of electric vehicles can be preprogrammed to recharge at night. Demand for electricity occurs during the day, not the night. Demand is high mainly between 7 a.m. and 7 p.m.

In many parts of the world, vehicles can be preprogrammed to recharge when electricity is cheapest or demand is low. We can do that.

I want to say one thing. A few years ago, I was living in a place that often had power outages. I used my electric car battery as a power source for my refrigerator and computer so I could keep working. When I needed power because my battery had gone down, I went and recharged my car, then went back home. People who had gas cars at the time couldn't fill up because service stations are normally closed during a power outage.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

So zero-emission vehicles can serve many purposes.

[Daniel Breton]

Exactly. We'll do that using a technology we call

“vehicle to home” and “vehicle to grid”.

So vehicles will serve as power and energy sources. That will be the case of trucks and buses in particular. You already see that in regions in the United States where electricity rates are very high.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

I'm still learning things at my age.

Now I'm going to talk about hydrogen.

Mr. Pocard, your sector is interesting but not well known. I'm going to ask you a very simple question.

Why can't you make a breakthrough in developing businesses associated with hydrogen-based technology?

Your technology promises benefits, but we sense that you're very shy. You say you complement other technologies, but you're the small player compared to electric vehicles, which are in turn small players relative to gas cars.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

I'll ask you to answer briefly, Mr. Pocard.

[Nicolas Pocard]

That's a very good question. Our technology appeared a little too soon compared to other technologies. The electrification of electric vehicles also helps hydrogen. The decline in electric car costs is paving the way for hydrogen-based technology. We're seeing very rapid development.

It took a long time to start up, but now we're seeing a sharp increase in the number of vehicles. It's developing quickly.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you, Mr. Pocard.

Go ahead, Mr. Schiefke.

[Peter Schiefke, Liberal, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'm a member from Quebec. My province is rich in natural resources such as lithium, which will help in electrifying our society

The Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry recently declared that Canada should support the development of battery supply chains in Canada using Canadian resources. Quebec's also trying to develop a lithium battery sector.

Mr. Breton, what federal measures are likely to encourage development of those supply chains in Canada?

[Daniel Breton]

Thank you for your question.

The Strategic Innovation Fund is an extremely promising program that's already in place. The Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry came to our annual conference two weeks ago to discuss what interest there might be in creating a national transportation electrification industry.

It's important that the various provinces cooperate. There are strengths in Quebec, Ontario, Nova Scotia, Manitoba, Alberta and British Columbia. If we coordinate our strengths rather than compete with each other, we can achieve very good results.

I think it's extremely important to have an innovation assistance program. The Canada Infrastructure Bank program to assist in the acquisition of school buses and recharging stations is important too. Ultimately, we have to accelerate innovation by promoting electric vehicle purchases.

It's very simple. The discount provided on the purchase of an electric vehicle is an incentive to innovation. Its purpose is to increase the number of electric vehicles on the road. People from General Motors and Tesla recently said we could achieve virtual parity between electric vehicles and gas equivalents around 2025. Supporting innovation with a discount on the purchase of an electric car is like supporting innovation in the pharmaceutical, health and even oil and gas industries to reduce pollution.

If I'm not mistaken, the government stated in the throne speech that we want to make Canada the most attractive country in the world for businesses that use clean technologies. I'm entirely in favour of that.

[Peter Schiefke, Liberal, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Thanks very much, Mr. Breton.

I have another question for you. This is regarding the impact of Conservative cuts to electric vehicle subsidies in Ontario and the fact they now don't have a mandate for electric vehicles by 2030, 2040 or 2050. What impact is that going to have on the typical family in Ontario being able to have access to and afford an electric vehicle? What impact is it going to have on the Ontario government's ability to reduce the province's greenhouse gas emissions because of that?

[Daniel Breton]

Is the question for me again?

[Peter Schiefke, Liberal, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Yes.

[Daniel Breton]

I think that Premier Ford has missed a great opportunity to be able to be a leader in North America, because there are a lot of OEMs in Ontario. In their economic update a few weeks ago, they said they wanted to be a leader in building electric vehicles in Ontario, but they don't set an example—there's no rebate and they don't have anything to support infrastructure installation.

I think there's a great opportunity for Ontario, for Canada, but we have to be aligned because right now there are discrepancies that are making Ontario lag behind B.C., for instance.

[Peter Schiefke, Liberal, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

So what we're looking at essentially is a situation where Ontario may produce a large number of electric vehicles, but the people living literally a kilometre away from that plant may not be able to access those vehicles because there are no subsidies in place. Because there's no mandate, those automobiles are going to be shipped to other jurisdictions—Quebec, British Columbia, California—where there are those incentives. Is that correct?