Environment Committee on Nov. 25th, 2020

[David Adams]

Well, I think they are. As I noted in my remarks, between now and 2025 my own members, my 15 members, will have more than 125 models in the marketplace. It's an issue of timing, as I indicated before.

Just in terms of a key indicator, on the iZEV program that's been put in place, the vast majority of those funds that were intended to last three years have already been fully subscribed to by consumers. So to say that there's no demand—I think the data refutes that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

Mr. McLeod.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I've been listening with interest. I appreciate all of the people who presented here today.

Mr. Breton, I had an opportunity to drive a hybrid vehicle. I test drove it in the town of Inuvik, which is quite far north, in in the northern part of the Northwest Territories. It was -32 when I got the vehicle. That night when I parked it at the hotel it went down to -37. The next morning, the vehicle was no different from when I parked it. It started up, no problem. It was a half-ton truck. It was no different from a regular vehicle, except it was a hybrid. It was quieter. It had quicker response. I really enjoyed the vehicle. I live in the north, where most contractors in industry be it oil and gas or mining, drive the larger one-ton trucks or half-ton trucks. They start them in October and let them run until March. They don't shut them off. Usually they're diesel trucks.

A lot of people would like to see that idling time reduced. That includes governments. The cost of the batteries is so significant. The batteries are lasting longer; they can last eight years plus. They cost up to 25% of what the vehicle costs. I understand there are lots of different batteries on the market and more coming all the time. We probably have more battery scientists then we have ever had in our history.

With your knowledge, do you see something down the road: a graphene battery, a mechanical battery?

Can we look into the future and say something can be purchased for the electric vehicles?

[Daniel Breton]

Yes, absolutely.

First, I took a trip at about -25 when I went to Saguenay from Berthierville where I live. We had no problem whatsoever. When it's really cold, it's a lot easier to start an electric vehicle than a gas vehicle. We had to boost a few gas vehicles when we did some tests in past winters. I understand absolutely what you're saying.

To your point, yes, General Motors, Tesla and others are working on third-generation batteries that will have 50% more energy density, thus a lot more range. It will be 50% to 60% cheaper by 2024-25. That is very close to now. After that, by 2026-27 we're thinking about solid state batteries, the next generation batteries that will have even more range. We're talking about 800 to a 1,000 kilometres with five to 15 minutes to recharge. Things are evolving really quickly. With the likes of Professor Jeff Dahn at Dalhousie University who works with Tesla, Karim Zaghib who works for IREQ at Hydro-Québec, and others in Canada, huge progress is being made with battery technology nowadays, and battery manufacturing as well.

I think the pickup trucks are going to be a lot more affordable than people think when you calculate the total cost of ownership. They are coming to market in 2021-22. It's tomorrow. I know that a lot of people who work in construction are interested in buying electric pickup trucks because they know how expensive gas is for trucks.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

Regarding the incentives, I find there's so little knowledge about zero-emission vehicles. We live in the north here. There are not a lot of zero-emission vehicles, but there is a huge need. We have really low greenhouse gas emissions, but at the same time we have a lot of vehicles idling in the north.

[Daniel Breton]

Yes.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

I don't know if most sectors, industries and governments would buy and test these vehicles without the incentives. I think the educational component is really needed. This is beyond the cost of the vehicle, as you said. We need subsidies to get people comfortable with the zero-emission vehicles. We need to be able to make sure that people know that there will able people who can do repairs.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Yes.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

We have to be able to know that, yes, we can get parts for the vehicle. We need to know that people can make money with charging stations—all of these things.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Yes.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

But without incentives I don't think we'll ever get there.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

That's a good comment, but we won't have time for an answer.

We can squeeze in a fourth round if we reduce the time of the questions. I figure if we do four, four, two, two, four, four, we'll get it done.

We start with Mr. Hoback for four minutes, please.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Thank you Chair. It's been fascinating listening to this.

I got excited. I was at a consumer electronics show in Las Vegas about five years ago, where they were talking about their charging stations, and they were just starting to introduce these cars. The talk, then, was of course about the grid and how we were going to support that and all of the things that we would need around this new technology.

My first question is with regard to this becoming more common on our streets. When there is a car accident and emergency response is attending to these vehicles, is there anything that they should be looking at now and putting into their inventories to handle, say, a rollover or a vehicle accident, or something like that?

[Daniel Breton]

Who is the question for?

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

You guys know the industry very well. I'm curious about what you both think.

[Daniel Breton]

Well, actually, there is training now for firemen and emergency people regarding electric vehicles. But if you're talking about rollovers, they are really rare because the weight of the battery at the bottom of the vehicle makes them a lot more stable than a normal gas vehicle, especially when you're talking about SUVs. They are giving training nowadays to emergency people and firemen who work in the industry so they can manage everything related to wiring.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Exactly. When you look at that end of it, you see that we have to prepare not just the guys buying the car and the people producing the car, but all of the areas around it that help support the whole automotive sector. I know Mr. McLeod talked a little bit about that too.

One other thing I was curious about is when these batteries go in vehicles, they have a duty life cycle—I think that's the appropriate way to call it. There comes a time when they are no good for a vehicle, but they still have life left in them and could be used somewhere else. How are we making sure that there is commonality? When you take that battery out of the vehicle and, let's say, put it into a fridge or a house or something like that, you want to make sure that you get the full value out of the battery.

[Daniel Breton]

Well, you can pile up batteries from electric vehicles for energy storage, where, for instance, you're away from a grid and you get energy from, let's say, solar power or wind power. We see that in Hawaii and elsewhere. These batteries can last a lot longer, so they have their second life as storage components. After that, they can be recycled up to 95%. A battery can last for 20 to 30 years.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Maybe the automotive sector can answer this better. Are we seeing some commonality in the construction of these batteries so that they can actually be unplugged from the car and plugged into the house? Are we seeing some commonality so that that can actually happen? Is that actually in the design criteria for these batteries at this point in time? Is it talked about as they develop these batteries?

[David Adams]

There are standards being developed for the secondary-use cycle. Mr. Breton is correct on how they can be used afterwards. Really, most people don't know that there is a lot of life left in the battery—it's 80%. Once that battery depletes below 80%, it's no longer useful as a car battery but has a number of years left for use as a secondary source.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Okay. You say “a number of years”, so it can go into a house for 10 years. I guess it depends on the size of the battery and everything else.

I'm a farm kid and I can remember the days when we used to hook up our hydraulics. A John Deere tractor had a different set of hydraulic ends than a Case tractor had. I want to be sure that we have some commonality.

One thing about the USMCA that would attract opportunity—a potential, and maybe we've missed it—is through the creation of North American regulations. By having everything done in North America and being first at it, our volumes are so big here that it would force the other parts of the world to take on our regulations, which would then become the norm. It would give us the manufacturing advantage here in North America. Are we actually going to be able to accomplish that?

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

A 10-second answer, please. It's a yes or no, really.

[David Adams]

No, we actually don't have the dominant regulatory standard. There are other standards around the world that are [Inaudible—Editor].

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

We'll go to Mr. Longfield. He'll be splitting his time with Mr. Saini, so two minutes each.

[Raj Saini, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Thanks, Chair.