Environment Committee on Dec. 2nd, 2020

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

You have about 45 seconds.

[Raj Saini, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

I have a quick question. I'd like a quick comment from you, Minister, on the potential of hydrogen as a future fuel.

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

I think there's enormous potential.

Hydrogen opens up different pathways. Not everything has to be electrified, which is daunting when you think about the quantity of electrification. Hydrogen can be sourced from all kinds of different places. It offers opportunities with respect to building heat, with respect to industrial processes and with respect to a fuel for heavy-duty vehicles, for which batteries are going to be challenging. It is going to be an important part of our strategy going forward, as it is in Europe, as it is in the United Kingdom and as I'm sure it will be in the United States.

[Raj Saini, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

You promised you would give us an hour of your time and you have kept your promise.

We will certainly have an opportunity to see you again to our great pleasure. On behalf of the committee, I want to thank you for making yourself available. We really appreciate you agreeing to stay until 5:20 p.m. to make up for a delay of a few minutes. We know that you are very busy, and we thank you for joining us, Minister.

If I have understood correctly, we are continuing with the Parks Canada Agency officials.

We are beginning the third round of questions and answers.

Mr. Albas, go ahead.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

I'd like to thank again the minister for his presence here today. I certainly want to thank the chair, as well as both the deputy minister and the head of Parks Canada for what they do for Canadians.

We've heard from stakeholders who say that calling their plastic products “toxic” will destroy their business and the jobs that come along with it. Did the ministry consider the impacts from naming important products as “toxic” when they proposed this change?

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Who would like to take this question?

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

It was my expectation that it would be the deputy minister.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Okay. Go ahead, Ms. Hogan.

[Carol Najm]

Committee members, the deputy has left with the minister. I will ask John Moffet to respond to your question, or Helen.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

I specifically asked for the deputy minister to be here in her capacity as an accounting officer, and I had questions specific to the policies and whether or not she is following Treasury Board policies during COVID. This is a great disappointment. Mr. Moffet, I certainly would appreciate hearing from you, but Mr. Chair, this is not what we asked for.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

I understand. It's duly noted, Mr. Albas.

Go ahead, Mr. Moffet.

[John Moffet, Assistant Deputy Minister, Environmental Protection Branch, Department of the Environment]

Mr. Chair, I'm going to defer to Helen Ryan, the associate assistant deputy minister, who is responsible for the plastic waste initiative.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Ms. Ryan, go ahead, please.

[Helen Ryan, Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Environmental Protection Branch, Department of the Environment]

The government recently put out a discussion document that lays out a risk management framework for dealing with plastics and proposed an order to add plastic manufactured items to schedule 1 of the Canadian Environmental Protection Act. In the discussion document, we lay out a comprehensive approach in terms of the elements that need to be tackled with respect to the zero plastic waste agenda, including identifying a framework for making decisions about articles that could be banned or have their use restricted, so the considerations around what items should be potentially banned or restricted are laid out in the context of a number of criteria that need to be met.

The consideration around which things should be taken out of the environment through a ban or an exemption is based on whether they're difficult to recycle or hinder our recycling ability, whether there are known alternatives, whether they're found to be prevalent in the environment and problematic in terms of their management and so on.

Those considerations were factored in, and we're currently in consultation with the public and seeking their input and views with respect to the proposal, as well as seeking comments on the proposal of—

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Ms. Ryan, I think you're going a little further than I'd asked.

[Helen Ryan]

—adding plastic manufactured items to schedule 1 of CEPA.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Ms. Ryan, I do appreciate it. You've gone a little further and I'm going to be going a little further on this, so maybe we'll go in a direction that I would like the chain of discussion to go.

The minister specifically said that the goal is only to ban six specific items. Why have the regulations painted every single plastic product in Canada as toxic? That is what labelling this substance on that list does.

[Helen Ryan]

The way we access our authorities under the Canadian Environmental Protection Act to put in place control measures is by adding an item to schedule 1 of CEPA. The proposal that's out for consideration and public comment at the moment is a proposal to add plastic manufactured items to schedule 1 of CEPA. The considerations around what items may be banned is the subject of a discussion document.

We do not yet have a regulatory proposal with respect to the bans. We have a framework that lays out how we might approach making decisions about what items should be banned and consultations on that framework itself, and then on the proposed items that we believe meet those criteria, which are the six items being referenced. The proposal at the moment is to add plastic manufactured items to schedule 1 of the Canadian Environmental Protection Act so we can access our authorities under CEPA.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

I do believe, Ms. Ryan, that this is going to be extremely complicated. I've spoken directly to plastic industry stakeholders, who have told me that declaring their items as toxic threatens things that Canadians count on, including medical products.

Has the ministry heard these concerns from plastic industry stakeholders and has there been any examination into these impacts? Again, I'm not saying that those are the items that have been listed by the minister—these have been very specific—but when the average Fred or Mary on their patio hears there's a general listing as toxic, that raises eyebrows, and they want to know why.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Please be brief, Ms. Ryan.

[Helen Ryan]

Yes, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for that comment. As I mentioned, we're in the process right now of active and ongoing consultations with stakeholders on these very issues. We are hearing from a broad variety of people on this issue. We will be taking that into account.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, just before my time is up, I have to say again that I am extremely upset that we do not have the deputy minister here in her role as an accounting officer. I know that the government ministers themselves have a terrible record on the accountability act and some of the provisions that are under it, but deputy ministers do act on their behalf under the accountability act, with very specific powers and duties.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Understood.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Mr. Chair, I very rarely get upset, but this should not and cannot stand. Parliament has passed a law. We've asked for respect as a committee. I would hope we would have that. As far as I'm concerned, we were very clear and very polite in asking for her presence.