Evidence of meeting #11 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was production.
A video is available from Parliament.
7:05 p.m.
NDP
Laurel Collins NDP Victoria, BC
If you were to pick one or two subsidies that would be at the top of your list for elimination, what would they be?
7:05 p.m.
Senior Climate and Energy Program Manager, Environmental Defence Canada
EDC support is by far the greatest part of Canada's support to the sector. Putting in place exclusion of policies at Export Development Canada is a huge step. You mentioned $5 billion this year. Most years, it's $13 billion. This was a slow year for EDC.
Beyond that, I would put in place, rather than individual subsidies to be eliminated.... There are just so many. NRCan has at least 10 different funding programs, and we have programs that aren't fossil fuel subsidies but, without strict climate conditions, might give huge amounts of subsidies to the fossil fuel sector, like the $8 billion net-zero accelerator.
We need strict conditions on those and we need binding legislation to ensure that none of the funds will go to the fossil fuel sector.
7:10 p.m.
NDP
Laurel Collins NDP Victoria, BC
In today's report, you list a number of programs that could easily become fossil fuel subsidies if green strings are not attached. Can you talk a bit about the need to have climate conditions on government spending?
7:10 p.m.
Senior Climate and Energy Program Manager, Environmental Defence Canada
The big one there is the $8 billion net-zero accelerator. Generally, we've been talking about the oil and gas orphan well cleanup. If that had gone to nations or to communities to clean up their own oil and gas wells, that would have been an excellent use of public money. The problem is that the lion's share of that money went to CNRL. It went to Suncor. They paused their own spending and used public dollars, so there was no extra reclamation from or jobs created by those companies.
There are so many examples of the kinds of employment and environmental conditions that we should be placing on these programs.
7:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
Thank you.
We'll go to Mr. McLean now. We're in the five-minute round.
7:10 p.m.
Conservative
Greg McLean Conservative Calgary Centre, AB
Thank you very much.
Thanks to the witnesses for the scintillating information here. I really appreciate it.
Let me start off with something that I hear the witnesses focusing on. I'm going to go to Mr. Beugin.
Mr. Beugin, we talk about EDC here and the $8.6 billion in loans it's providing as an inefficient subsidy. Are loans considered a subsidy, if you will, when they are market-based?
7:10 p.m.
Vice-President, Research and Analysis, Canadian Climate Institute
I think it depends on the rate. If they are preferential loans that give the proponent rates that are better than they could receive in the market—
7:10 p.m.
Vice-President, Research and Analysis, Canadian Climate Institute
In some cases, yes, they are.
7:10 p.m.
Vice-President, Research and Analysis, Canadian Climate Institute
I don't have an numerical answer to that question at hand.
7:10 p.m.
Conservative
Greg McLean Conservative Calgary Centre, AB
Okay. I'll move on.
That being the case, they are paying interest, so you wouldn't consider it a subsidy if it was a grant, as opposed to a loan—
7:10 p.m.
Vice-President, Research and Analysis, Canadian Climate Institute
It would be a different—
7:10 p.m.
Conservative
Greg McLean Conservative Calgary Centre, AB
—like all the alternative energies receive, the grants and a CCA rate of 100% on the equipment installed. Those wouldn't be considered comparable subsidies as a loan that pays interest.
7:10 p.m.
Vice-President, Research and Analysis, Canadian Climate Institute
I think both can be considered subsidies. It's a question of how big the subsidy is.
7:10 p.m.
Conservative
Greg McLean Conservative Calgary Centre, AB
It's how big and how deep it has to go. That's correct.
With the $8.6 billion being paid back, along with interest, would you still consider it a subsidy?
7:10 p.m.
Vice-President, Research and Analysis, Canadian Climate Institute
If the rate is better than they could receive from market value from the capital markets, yes.
7:10 p.m.
Conservative
Greg McLean Conservative Calgary Centre, AB
It's not a deep subsidy. It's not $8.6 billion worth of subsidy, but maybe 1% of $8.6 billion.
7:10 p.m.
Vice-President, Research and Analysis, Canadian Climate Institute
It's a fraction of the piece, rather than the whole.
7:10 p.m.
Conservative
Greg McLean Conservative Calgary Centre, AB
Good. Thanks very much.
Would we agree that $8.6 billion is a bit of a stretched number?
7:10 p.m.
Vice-President, Research and Analysis, Canadian Climate Institute
I think it's probably smaller than that. Yes.
7:10 p.m.
Conservative
Greg McLean Conservative Calgary Centre, AB
Thank you.
You talked about 90% of global GDP being committed to a net-zero future. Can you tell me where that 90% of global GDP is committed? How has it performed so far in reducing greenhouse gas emissions around the world?
7:10 p.m.
Vice-President, Research and Analysis, Canadian Climate Institute
That comes from commitments to achieve net-zero under the national climate process.
7:10 p.m.
Conservative
Greg McLean Conservative Calgary Centre, AB
Like this government, it's in word so far, but there are no actual results. In fact, there are negative results. It has actually grown GHG emissions in 90% of these countries.
7:10 p.m.
Vice-President, Research and Analysis, Canadian Climate Institute
Not all of those countries have yet implemented policies. You are correct. That being said, the risk of them acting on their commitments should be taken seriously.