Environment Committee on June 4th, 2024

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

I think Mr. Mazier is speaking too quickly for the interpreters, who don't have the text of the motion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

You're going a bit fast for the interpreters.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

I will give them a copy, too.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

We'll take a second here.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

I'm sorry about that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Go ahead, Mr. Mazier.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

I'm sorry about that. It's $8 billion. It's is pretty exciting.

I'll start from the top again:

Given that the government has failed to provide the committee with the following documents and information relating to their $8-billion-dollar Net Zero Accelerator fund:

all complete contributions agreements signed, to date, for the Net Zero Accelerator;

the government's complete tracker tool used to measure the Net Zero Accelerator's progress and results; and

all internal Net Zero Accelerator targets set by the government, including the government's Net Zero Accelerator emissions reduction target.

The committee invite Simon Kennedy, Deputy Minister of Innovation, Science and Economic Development, Jean-Francois Tremblay, Deputy Minister of the Environment and Climate Change, and Jerry V. DeMarco, Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development to appear before the committee on Tuesday, June 11, 2024 at 5:30 p.m. EST for no less than two hours; the committee invite the members of the Greenhouse Gas Interdepartmental Working Group and members of the Strategic Innovation Fund's Investment Review Committee to be present for technical questions as needed; the committee order the production of all (i) complete and unredacted signed contributions agreements and (ii) fully unredacted term sheets, to date, for Net Zero Accelerator; and the committee order the government's fully unredacted, unrestricted tracker tool used to measure the Net Zero Accelerator's progress and results.

Mr. Chair, this may be the first time in decades that the Standing Committee on Environment has been forced to call an emergency meeting, but it's for very good reasons. It's for $8 billion. That's how much the Liberals charged taxpayers for the net-zero accelerator fund.

Four years ago, Justin Trudeau announced his net-zero accelerator fund. He promised Canadians that his $8-billion program would reduce greenhouse gas emissions. However, the environment commissioner revealed that the Liberals were giving away billions of dollars to Canada's largest emitters without any commitment to reduce emissions.

The environment commissioner stated, “the department did not always know to what extent [greenhouse gas] emissions had been reduced by those companies that took part in the [net-zero accelerator] initiative, or whether the funding provided would lead to reduced emissions.”

If members of the committee don't take this matter seriously, you're failing to do your job.

In fact, the commissioner also revealed the government wasn't even tracking the value for money of their $8-billion net-zero accelerator fund. The commissioner stated, “we have seen no public reporting on the value for money”.

The Liberals think it's okay to give away billions of taxpayer dollars to multinational companies. Canadian taxpayers deserve to know what they're paying for. That's why the committee ordered the production of all the funding agreements and emissions reduction information on the government's net-zero accelerator fund.

However, the Liberal government completely defied our committee once again and refused to release the information. It was another slap in the face for this committee and to Canadians. In my opinion, it was a blatant breach of privilege.

Now we are dealing with an $8-billion cover-up. In fact the Liberals claim that the emissions reduction target of the net-zero accelerator is protected under cabinet confidence. The government stated in its response to this committee, “ISED is not in a position to disclose the targets, as they are protected under Cabinet confidence.”

The government emissions reduction target for the net-zero accelerator fund is so secret that they're not even willing to share it with this committee. This is unheard of and it's absurd, but this isn't surprising, given that Canada's environment commissioner also reported that the Liberals are not on track to meet their own 2030 emissions reduction targets or given the fact that Canada dropped from 62nd to 67th on the climate change performance index. That's four rankings lower than the year before.

How can Liberals ask Canadians to pay for an $8-billion program that was intended to reduce emissions, without showing anyone the results?

Now, suddenly, Minister Guilbeault is pretending this is a $8-billion slush fund he isn't responsible for. He's pretending that the net-zero accelerator fund has nothing to do with him, despite the fact that it's supposed to reduce emissions.

However, that's not true. In Minister Guilbeault's mandate letter, the Prime Minister states:

To realize these objectives, I ask that you achieve results for Canadians by delivering the following commitments....

Support the Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry in the implementation of the Net Zero Accelerator initiative, with an emphasis on ensuring that investments drive industrial transition and significant reductions in greenhouse gas emissions on a scale consistent with achieving Canada's climate goals and meaningfully transform Canadian industry to lead and compete in a net-zero emissions future.

Even the advisory body that provides advice on the net-zero accelerator applications is co-chaired by Minister Guilbeault's own department. Minister Guilbeault must be held accountable for this $8-billion cover-up.

I will also draw your attention to the response the Liberal government provided this committee. They stated that “[Greenhouse gas] reductions set to occur after 10 years' time cannot be reliably estimated.” The government also stated that “a precise estimate of reductions is not achievable for most pillar-2 and pillar-3 projects.”

It appears the $8-billion net-zero accelerator is free cash for Canada's largest emitters. Meanwhile, the Liberals punish Canadians with a costly carbon tax. We must end this cover-up. We must release the contracts. We must release the emissions reduction targets. We must release the results and tell Canadians why they're paying for this Liberal government's $8-billion net-zero accelerator slush fund. Anything less is a slap in the face to Canadians and this committee.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Mr. van Koeverden, please go ahead.

[Adam van Koeverden, Liberal, Milton, ON]

Thanks very much, Mr. Chair.

Before I start, I'd just like to state, on the record, that this is a blatant misuse of a 106(4), which are for emergency meetings. We meet twice a week in this committee, so this kind of alarmist, phony rhetoric from the Conservatives is not new, but misusing a 106(4) is silly and totally not necessary. We know that the Conservatives are doing it for clicks and likes on Facebook and not to actually achieve any progress in this committee.

Once again, I'll state that the net-zero accelerator fund does have emissions reduction targets attached to every contract. That's actually included in the press releases associated with the funding releases. For example, in Hamilton, we're investing with the steel industry to eliminate coal from the production of structural steel. It's fantastic. I went to McMaster University, and there used to be huge plumes of smoke. They continue to burn quite a lot of coal there, but using electric arc technology they will be able to eliminate the need for coal. That same practical application of electrical technology will be at Algoma Steel.

These are the types of things we're talking about. We're also investing in carbon capture and storage technology with some of Canada's largest emitters. In order to reduce emissions, we need to work with Canada's largest emitters. That's called low-hanging fruit. It's the opportunity to address the emissions where they are, and in a place like Hamilton with the steel sector, we can see them with our bare eyes. They're not something abstract. Those emissions are right in front of us. In the case of that investment, it was associated with a large number of emissions reductions that were clearly stated. I forget the exact number of megatonnes, but it was in the order of 2,500 vehicles taken off the road in Hamilton, Ontario, which makes a big difference for air quality in Hamilton.

Mr. Chair, that's not the point. We can talk about that program or literally any other program in normal committee business at any time, but the Conservatives want to be alarmist and pretend there's some sort of a cover-up or a scandal going on, when we're just investing money in Canadian industries when they say they want technology. This is literally technology. We're investing in technology like electric arc for steel production and carbon capture and earth storage. They are always speaking out of both sides of their mouths.

Conservatives like to take to social media and suggest that the government is hiding contracts, but in many cases contracts need to be confidential because we're dealing with companies that want to maintain that confidentiality, so releasing confidential business information sets a really bad precedent for the government. Saying that the government is hiding something when it clearly isn't is just for clips, and it's absurd. All of the information they're suggesting would be in those contracts is literally in the press release.

The point is that our government is open by default, and I think it's fair to request that the department continue to work with companies in advance of the briefing to ensure that as much information as possible is available. Literally all of the demands of Mr. Mazier are addressed in the press release. I'll also state again that a 25-page document was delivered on the day it was requested. It indicates all of the information about the net-zero accelerator initiative from Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada because, as I've also stated before, this is not an Environment and Climate Change program. It works with industry leaders, the steel industry and other sectors, ones that the Conservatives pretend they support, but when it comes to investing with them in collaboration to lower their emissions and get them off of dirty coal, the Conservatives seem to be against that too.

We know they don't believe in climate change. We know they don't care about reducing emissions, but we also now know that they don't care about the rigour of committee and using tools like a 106(4) effectively. We have no problem with any of these meetings. I think an in camera briefing from ISED officials would benefit us all. We could probably do that first and then decide afterwards if further meetings are warranted, Mr. Chair. This alarmist approach and lack of collaboration are really disappointing.

Thanks.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

The floor is yours, Ms. Pauzé.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

I'd like to tell my colleague opposite that all the opposition parties signed the letter, in compliance with standing order 106(4). Could there be another way of getting there? I'm not really a procedural expert. Nevertheless, we all signed the letter. Basically, it's a matter of transparency because we would no doubt all agree that $8 billion isn't peanuts.

As for confidentiality, as we are members of Parliament, people come to our offices and give us confidential information, which we don't disclose. It's a matter of trust in the work we do.

Who decides what's going to be considered confidential and what's not? That question needs asking too. I think we are right to demand more transparency, because the money was invested to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. We want to know how the money invested will help reduce these emissions.

I'd like to return to the confidentiality issue, because I remember some interventions by the Prime Minister about foreign interference. He said it would be possible to invite opposition members to a secret meeting. If it's possible to hold secret meetings on security, then I can't see why we couldn't hold secret meetings here to discuss contracts. Our professionalism has to be trusted.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Mr. van Koeverden.

[Adam van Koeverden, Liberal, Milton, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to my colleague.

I know all parties signed the 106(4). Like I said, here we are, at the next meeting, talking about it. This is how it can work if we work together.

This is not an emergency meeting. An emergency meeting is not required for this. Like I said, it's a complete misuse of resources. I agree that we can absolutely have meetings about this. It would be great just to collaborate, rather than suggest there's some sort of urgency. We can have a meeting about this at any time.

Suggesting that the information wasn't delivered, as Mr. Mazier pointed out, is misleading. It was delivered. I went through the 25-page document with him at his desk in the House of Commons. I sat with him and asked, “Mr. Mazier, have you received the documents from ISED?” He said, “Yes, I have. I'm reading them right now.” I said, “Good. I'm reading them, too.”

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

You said you hadn't received them, actually.

[Adam van Koeverden, Liberal, Milton, ON]

No, I had them in my inbox.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

He hadn't had a chance to look at them. You hadn't received them. That's what you told me, but anyway, for the record—

[Adam van Koeverden, Liberal, Milton, ON]

Thanks. It's....

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Let's not have a discussion across the table. I'll let Mr. van Koeverden—

[Adam van Koeverden, Liberal, Milton, ON]

What I said was that I'd received—

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

[Inaudible—Editor] the last time you come and sit by my desk.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

I'll pause the meeting if I can't get co-operation.

We'll let Mr. van Koeverden finish, and then we'll go to Mr. Leslie and Ms. Idlout.

Mr. Mazier, did you want to get in on that? Is that what you're signalling? Yes.

[Adam van Koeverden, Liberal, Milton, ON]

Mr. Mazier makes a good point. Before I even opened the document, I sat with him at his desk to ensure that he had received the documents.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

For correction and clarification, you stood—

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

It's not a point of order, Mr. Mazier.

[Adam van Koeverden, Liberal, Milton, ON]

You can “point of order” me if you want, but come on.