Evidence of meeting #112 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was energy.
A video is available from Parliament.
NDP
Laurel Collins NDP Victoria, BC
Emissions in the oil and gas sector have continued to rise year after year.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Cenovus Energy Inc.
Emissions in the oil and gas industry peaked in 2017.
NDP
Laurel Collins NDP Victoria, BC
Maybe I'll ask Mr. Corson, given that we've had reports that emissions in the oil and gas sector are going up while other sectors' are going down. Your voluntary climate commitments should already have you on track to meet the low level that's required in an emissions cap. Why are you lobbying against it?
Chairman, President and Chief Executive Officer, Imperial Oil Limited
As I think we've said a couple of times, we don't feel an emissions cap is necessary. We already have significant regulatory incentives and drives in place that are causing us to proactively reduce our emissions. I've cited many examples of how we've done that.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
Thank you. We have to go now to Mrs. Stubbs for five minutes.
Conservative
Shannon Stubbs Conservative Lakeland, AB
Thank you, Chair.
My apologies for the intervention earlier. I appreciate your rebuke of me. I do just want to clarify—
Conservative
Shannon Stubbs Conservative Lakeland, AB
Yes, and you are the most polite and diplomatic ever.
I just want to clarify that, of course, what I said to our colleague, MP Collins, is that every single question she's asking these industry representatives she should actually be asking her partners in the Liberal government because they are the ones who are in negotiations with the big multinationals on every single thing—
NDP
Laurel Collins NDP Victoria, BC
Mrs. Stubbs is referring to my questions about the oil and gas CEOs. I was asking about their lobbying of this government. I think those questions are completely appropriate.
Liberal
Conservative
Shannon Stubbs Conservative Lakeland, AB
Yes, what I was clarifying was that, though you asserted that Conservatives were there to help CEOs, it's actually your coalition partners who are in negotiations with the multinationals. You should ask them.
Second of all, I think we can all see that this is not a good-faith, evidence-based, objective attempt to get facts. You can see the absolute disconnect with reality. You can see the absolute lack of knowledge of the different kinds of resources and the technical details, and the really important distinctions between all the kinds of energy resources that Canada is blessed with in order to provide our own energy self-sufficiency and to help lower emissions globally.
You can now see the spectacle where apparently we all sit here and pretend that there are borders that stop emissions. You can now see that there are proponents who are constantly talking about life-cycle analysis and cumulative effects, all of which we would agree with, but they don't apply those standards to any other sector or any other product.
Their policies, their objectives, are absolutely to shut your companies down, to shut down your operations. The Prime Minister said it, and they've shown in every single way over nine and a half years, through policy, through legislation and through messages, that this is their deliberate intention.
My quick question on the emissions cap is to the three upstream oil sands CEOs. How many countries in the world have an oil and gas emissions cap?
Conservative
Shannon Stubbs Conservative Lakeland, AB
That's correct. That's it. I don't need to go to the other two. The answer is zero.
The reason is, of course, because of this issue around competitiveness. There's no developed country depending on energy development and resources that, in its right mind, would implement that policy on itself.
I thank our Liberal colleagues for making it clear that the emissions cap is an intended production cap, which is under provincial jurisdiction, and is designed to kill jobs, businesses and all of the work of indigenous communities and Métis settlements. There are almost 30, between me and my colleague, that we represent in the communities where these operations are.
For decades, they have been the highest-capacity, wealthiest first nations and Métis settlements in the entire country. They have been funding their own-source revenue for their own communities out of their energy operations, and they are absolutely going to be crushed—including all of the workers and all of the people we represent—by the collusion between anti-energy activists, politicians, public policy-makers and, frankly, if it is the case, any kind of rent-seeking oligopoly collusion between big government and big corporations.
I would say there cannot be a shadow of a doubt, if you listen to the words of our leader, Pierre Poilievre. He said corporate-esque Canada will not have a free ride with Conservatives. He has said that, if there continues to be footsie with anti-resource, anti-private sector, anti-energy activists, politicians and public policy, we will always get that kind of result. It's very clear, after nine and a half years....
This is how stark the issue is. Here's the truth. In 2014, there was over $5 billion more investment in Canada from the U.S. than from Canada in the U.S. Here's the reality after nine and a half years. In 2022, there was over $460 billion more investment in the U.S. from Canada than in Canada from the U.S.
It is very clear that this anti-energy, anti-resource, anti-private sector, anti-capitalist, top-down central planning, economic command-and-control agenda is what this is all about. The consequences are catastrophic for the public interest of Canadians. We are here to fight for them and to represent them, not to be accountable to CEOs or to big companies. That's what Conservatives are fighting for, because we represent the people, the communities, the first nations, the Métis people and the 90% of oil and gas companies in Canada that have fewer than 100 employees. We do it because they're all small businesses.
Do you know what they all depend on? They all depend on the projects and the business from your companies. That's the truth about how all of this works.
Liberal
Conservative
Shannon Stubbs Conservative Lakeland, AB
Please make sure that you submit a written follow-up to every question you've been asked and to correct any facts you need to.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
Mrs. Stubbs, we have to go to Mr. Weiler.
Mr. Weiler, you have the floor.
Liberal
Patrick Weiler Liberal West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC
Thank you, Chair.
You'll have to excuse me. I am having a hard time taking the member opposite seriously when I know her husband is lobbying for Enbridge on this matter.
To the witnesses who are here today, in the last two years, the top four oil sands companies made $59 billion in profits. As it was mentioned by Mr. Kruger, record profits were made. However, the Pembina Institute notes that there were no new investments in emissions reductions. Of your cash flow, 75% was redistributed to share buybacks and dividends. In 2022, only 0.4% actually went into emissions reductions.
At present, Canada is offering a 50% investment tax credit for carbon capture projects, and Alberta has now proposed 12% on top of that. These investments are eligible going back to 2022, in Canada's case.
I just need a number, perhaps from Mr. McKenzie. What percentage of this project are you expecting the public to cover?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Cenovus Energy Inc.
We've been really clear as an industry that we're willing to invest in carbon capture and sequestration. I think I said in my opening remarks that we're about 25% of the existing GHG emissions in Canada.
Liberal
Patrick Weiler Liberal West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC
Thank you, Mr. McKenzie. I just need a number.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Cenovus Energy Inc.
I don't think the numbers we're talking about are out of line with the numbers you talked about. I think the piece you're missing is the operating costs that go with it. It's not only the capital investment up front, but also the operating costs that go with carbon capture and sequestration.
Liberal
Patrick Weiler Liberal West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC
Thank you, Mr. McKenzie.
The overwhelming majority of your companies are foreign-owned. Mr. Corson, of your company, Imperial, only 21% of your company is Canadian-owned.
Why do you think it's fair that Canadians should foot this percentage of the project, 50%—when we were running an estimated $50-billion deficit last year, when your companies are making record profits—in order to clean up emissions coming from your projects and when 79% of the benefit from it could be going out of the country?
Chairman, President and Chief Executive Officer, Imperial Oil Limited
The benefit of decarbonization helps everybody. That's what we're focused on.
This project is unprecedented. It will allow us to significantly decarbonize our operations in the near term, and in the long term to achieve net zero by 2050. At the same time, it will allow us to continue to produce oil that Canadians need and desire, because it is beneficial to their standard of living. It brings jobs and significant royalty and tax revenues that are important to balance the budget of Canadians. When the oil industry is successful and profitable, then everybody wins.
Liberal
Patrick Weiler Liberal West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC
Thank you, Mr. Corson.
In the last year and a half, the five companies that are represented here today have lobbied the Government of Canada on average each calendar day. While I really appreciate everybody appearing virtually, you're not here today to speak about that, in spite of having this number of lobbying meetings.
We do have in the crowd people who today shared their stories of how their lives were turned upside down by climate-fuelled disasters—whether that's wildfires burning down homes, floods making homes completely uninhabitable or homes literally being incinerated in 10 to 15 minutes.
Mr. Kruger, my question to you is this. What would you like to say to those folks here today who have been deeply impacted by the burning of fossil fuels that your company and the companies represented here are disproportionately responsible for?