Environment Committee on June 11th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

I'd like to welcome Mr. Wolfish and those who are accompanying him today. They are Caroline Blais, director, forest products and Fisheries Act, ECCC; Laura Cervoni, acting director, freshwater policy, Canada water agency; Wayne Jenkinson, executive director, national hydrological services; and Arash Shahsavarani, director, water quality monitoring and surveillance division.

We're going to break as we get closer to the votes, and then we'll resume after each vote. I believe we have unanimous consent for this. That way, we'll finish on time or just a bit late, but not too late.

Witnesses, make sure your mic and your earpiece are at a reasonable distance in order to prevent feedback, which harms the interpreters. When you're not using your earpiece, put it face down on this little coaster-like sticker on the desk, again to avoid feedback.

Mr. Wolfish, the floor is yours for five minutes.

[Daniel Wolfish, Assistant Deputy Minister, Canada Water Agency, Department of the Environment]

Chair and members of the committee, thank you for having me here today.

I'm Daniel Wolfish. I'm the acting assistant deputy minister for the Canada water agency.

It's a delight for me to return to your committee and to participate in your study. As the chair noted, I am joined by several colleagues.

I would like to begin by acknowledging that we're located on the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people, who have been stewards of these lands and waters for millennia.

I am very encouraged by your exploration of the provincial and territorial needs and perspectives.

Freshwater is an area of shared jurisdiction in Canada, and the federal government works very closely with the provinces, territories and indigenous rights holders. Canada is committed to upholding the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.

Budget 2023 announced a major investment to support and protect fresh water in Canada, including implementing a strengthened freshwater action plan, creating the Canada water agency and advancing the review of the Canada Water Act.

We engaged provinces and territories on the creation of the Canada water agency. Many provinces and territories support the creation of the agency to strengthen the whole-of-government coordination and to support science, data and funding initiatives. The federal government has been clear that the agency's work will remain within federal authority, will respect provincial and territorial jurisdiction and will be highly collaborative.

In June 2023, the Canada Water Agency was created as a branch reporting to the Department of Environment and Climate Change.

Last November, as part of legislation included in Bill C‑59, An Act to implement certain provisions of the fall economic statement tabled in Parliament on November 21, 2023, and certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on March 28, 2023, the agency was fully established as a stand-alone entity outside the department.

The agency’s mandate is to improve freshwater management in Canada by providing leadership, effective collaboration at the federal level, and improved collaboration with the provinces, territories and indigenous peoples to proactively address national and regional transboundary freshwater challenges.

Our work will not duplicate or compete with existing legislative or regulatory frameworks for fresh water. The agency will focus on intergovernmental collaboration by leveraging existing FPT mechanisms, such as the Canadian Council of Ministers of the Environment.

There are other excellent examples of effective FPT co-operation, including the national hydrometric program, which is led by the national administrators table with representatives from each of the provinces and territories, and with the national hydrological services providing federal leadership.

The Canada water agency is delivering key elements of the strengthened freshwater action plan. These include work in eight federal water bodies of national significance. Many of these initiatives are already occurring in collaboration with provinces and territories, and there are long-standing agreements in place with Ontario, Quebec and Manitoba. Furthermore, ongoing work in interjurisdictional domestic water bodies has facilitated collaboration on transboundary freshwater management, such as the work of the Prairie Provinces Water Board and the Mackenzie River Basin Board.

The Canada Water Agency is also helping advance review of the Canada Water Act.

The pre-engagement phase has been launched. We are currently meeting with representatives from all interested provinces and territories. Furthermore, the agency provides support for the development of the National Freshwater Data Strategy. In September, we will be holding a workshop to collaboratively develop approaches to freshwater data.

Environment and Climate Change Canada leads the development of the National Freshwater Scientific Program and relevant engagement. This program will take the form of a road map, developed inclusively and collaboratively, to identify the most urgent freshwater challenges in Canada.

We recognize the committee's work on fresh water. We welcome your findings, and we're excited to see the conclusions of your freshwater study. This will certainly inform our work, going forward.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you, Mr. Wolfish.

We are now moving on to questions.

Mr. Leslie, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Branden Leslie, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

I'm sorry, Mr. Chair. Before we start the clock, can I ask a question of clarification?

I'm still relatively new, but in my experience and previous understanding, when the bells are ringing, you can't drop the gavel because you can't get unanimous consent to start the meeting. I understand that we have witnesses here, and I don't want to prevent any of that from happening. My concern is about the precedent of the chair deciding to start a meeting while the bells are ringing.

Through you, Mr. Chair, to the clerk, is that an abnormality? Could we get some clarification on previous practice?

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Is Mr. Leslie correct?

However, I asked for UC to carry on the meeting and to stop and vote five minutes before the vote starts.

[Branden Leslie, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Was it in this meeting? How did it even start?

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Well, I asked for UC to proceed in the following way: We would start the meeting—I don't have what I said verbatim—then, when we're five minutes from the vote, stop and vote, then resume. In other words, we all stay here in the room and vote, so we don't waste time.

There was no objection.

[Branden Leslie, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

I'm entirely in agreement. I'm happy and willing to do that. I was not here. I was voting in the chamber, so I did not hear that. My understanding is that, given the 15-minute bells following question period, the meeting could not commence. It's the same situation then as it was right after question period.

My concern is, broadly speaking, about the chair having the ability to drop the gavel without full attendance. A couple of my colleagues across the way came in late because they were in the exact same position. I worry about where this may lead within this committee or other committees.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

I know we always give 10 minutes after a vote. I thought I'd given 10 minutes, but maybe I stand corrected.

I apologize profusely to the committee, then. I asked for unanimous consent to carry on. Again, we had agreement that we'll stay in the room when the vote happens and break five minutes before the vote. In about 11 minutes and 11 seconds, we'll proceed that way.

Is everyone good with that?

[Adam van Koeverden, Liberal, Milton, ON]

Yes, I'm fine with that. I don't need to offer any reflections.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

I apologize if that's what I did in error.

[Adam van Koeverden, Liberal, Milton, ON]

Consent from all parties was given and that's, generally, the consensus rule—as long as we all agree, we're going to start. There are only five minutes between the last vote and these current bells—14 or 16 minutes ago.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

I probably should have allowed a bit more time for you, Madame Chatel and Madam Taylor Roy to get here. For that, I apologize.

[Branden Leslie, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

I'm not trying to say anything negative towards the way you've done this.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

You just don't want to set a precedent.

[Branden Leslie, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Exactly.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

I agree.

[Branden Leslie, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Could I offer my concern that this not be undertaken again at this committee or anywhere else?

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

It will not happen again, Mr. Leslie. I promise.

[Branden Leslie, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Thank you.

I'll look to my colleagues to see whether we're all happy to continue on.

Okay.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Well, go ahead. You have six minutes.

[Branden Leslie, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Wolfish, throughout the course of our study, multiple witnesses have appeared before the committee. They've told us they really don't understand, based on limited or, at best, a handful of engagements with the Canada water agency, what the agency is actually going to do. They don't understand what its purpose is, or what specifically will be undertaken out of your office, which is deeply concerning. I know the government has tried to identify, over the course of numerous years, what the agency will do.

I'm sure you've seen the movie Office Space, so I'll put it in a very simplistic yet comedic manner: What would you say you do here?

[Daniel Wolfish]

There are two key elements of our mandate that I would like to put forward.

The first part is that we are to be implementing the freshwater action plan. That consists of eight freshwater ecosystem initiatives across the country, and we will be continuing to work with provinces and territories and other partners for their implementation.

The second element is the policy work that we do to coordinate the federal government, coordinate with provinces and territories and coordinate with Métis, first nations and Inuit on issues around freshwater policy for the Government of Canada.

[Branden Leslie, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

To me, there hasn't been a convincing argument that there is.... Beyond anecdotes of standardization of data, there have been some pieces that seem necessary. That said, it hasn't been convincing that there needs to be an entirely new agency. Did anyone within ECCC, as far as you know, investigate whether or not the department could have done a similar task with existing resources?

[Daniel Wolfish]

The department undertook consultations from 2020 to 2022. They spoke with thousands of Canadians. They had a number of bilateral and multilateral conversations with provinces and territories and held a separate consultation with first nations, Métis and Inuit.

In much of those interactions, it was recommended that an agency be created to be a focal point for coordination, for addressing issues around data and data accessibility and availability in Canada and to continue the work to implement the freshwater action plan, including being a place for the implementation of the agreements with Ontario, Manitoba and Quebec on the freshwater ecosystem.