Evidence of meeting #120 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was forest.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB
No. It was really delayed, so I didn't hear the first part.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
Okay. I'll give you a few more seconds, but as I said to Mr. Boulerice, we're really here to talk about the caribou, not the price on carbon.
Conservative
Conservative
Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB
I just want a simple answer: Will you remove the carbon tax from home heating bills this winter for all Canadians?
Liberal
Steven Guilbeault Liberal Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC
You referred to my speech. In my speech, I talked about the Government of Quebec. We often congratulate the Government of Quebec for being an environmental leader by adopting carbon pricing. I was talking about how the Quebec government does carbon pricing with a cap-and-trade system, which is completely different from how it works in the rest of the country.
Liberal
Liberal
Sophie Chatel Liberal Pontiac, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Minister, I don't know where my Conservative colleagues were during all the committee meetings about caribou, but we heard from the unions. They pleaded with us to keep forests healthy because jobs are at stake. They were here. They told us what the solutions are. Workers need healthy forests to ensure their own health, their jobs and their future in rural regions that depend on forestry. They proposed solutions that my Conservative colleagues completely ignored. Among other things, they talked about rethinking the forest and looking at a range of options for developing the forest industry. Another proposed solution is to do more with the resource. Instead of sending four-by-four lumber to the United States, we need to do more processing.
I know that's not your portfolio, but is there a conversation about that happening with the forest industry?
Liberal
Steven Guilbeault Liberal Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC
My colleague, the Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry, and other cabinet colleagues are the ones having those discussions. When I was in Chibougamau, I visited the Chantiers Chibougamau plant. It would be worthwhile for the committee to go there. They do 3D digitization of every piece of wood that enters that plant to maximize what they can get in terms of harvesting. Those products are used to build bridges and stadiums. The company is very innovative. I think this kind of innovation is the future of the forest in Quebec and probably elsewhere in the country. There are a lot of things going on in the industry.
You're right, the Conservatives claim to be concerned about the fate of workers when there's an election campaign going on. Yet, when workers come here and explain what should be done, the Conservatives ignore them and pretend they haven't said a thing or that what they said was like what we heard from Mr. Martel. However, as you've heard, that's not at all what happened and that's not at all how workers see things.
Liberal
Sophie Chatel Liberal Pontiac, QC
It's shocking to see them playing politics at workers' expense. Workers' unions come to the committee to tell us how to solve the problem, but the Conservatives completely ignore them. I just can't fathom it.
What short-term measures could minimize the impact of an order? We don't know the terms of the order exactly, but my understanding is that the province has to come up with a credible plan to protect the caribou. That's actually what all the stakeholders asked us for. People are pleading with us to make sure that Quebec is a partner in finding solutions. If that doesn't happen, and we end up having to proceed with an order, what measures would do the best job of minimizing the socio-economic impact and the impact on the forestry sector in Quebec, according to your analysis?
Liberal
Steven Guilbeault Liberal Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC
I suggested an example when I was talking to Mr. Simard of the Bloc Québécois earlier. The federal government signed an agreement with British Columbia to invest nearly $500 million over the next few years, and the province will invest roughly the same amount to address very similar problems. We already had a caribou protection agreement with British Columbia. Now we also have an agreement on old-growth forests, creating other protected spaces and measures to help workers who may be impacted in certain sectors.
We're ready to have those conversations to see what federal levers can be used. We're prepared to invest hundreds of millions of dollars in Quebec to help support both biodiversity and jobs, but, again, the Government of Quebec has to sit down at the table with us so we can have those conversations, as we have done with a number of other Canadian provinces.
Liberal
Sophie Chatel Liberal Pontiac, QC
We talked about workers, but there's also the forestry industry. I have two forestry companies in my riding. They're ready to embrace a vision that involves doing more processing and innovation. Might they benefit from these investments in rethinking the forest?
Liberal
Steven Guilbeault Liberal Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC
That kind of investment in technological or industrial innovation is more in the wheelhouse of Mr. Champagne, our colleague at the Department of Innovation, Science and Economic Development. My department does have some measures relating to reforestation. That's the kind of thing we're working on with the Department of Natural Resources.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
Thank you.
That brings us to the end of the first hour of the meeting.
I understand you have to leave us, Minister, but the departmental representatives you brought with you can stay for another hour. They'll be joined by Marie‑Josée Couture, acting director general, Canadian Wildlife Service, and Nicholas Winfield, director general, Canadian Wildlife Service.
Ms. Couture and Mr. Winfield, please take a seat at the table. We'll continue the meeting.
Because the meeting wasn't interrupted, the next round of questions won't be six minutes per person. We'll continue with five-minute rounds and two-and-a-half-minute rounds.
We'll start with Mr. Martel.
Conservative
Richard Martel Conservative Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I want to thank all the witnesses for being here in person. We really appreciate it.
I'd like to know if the proposed order 100% guarantees the restoration of the three target caribou populations.
Tara Shannon Assistant Deputy Minister, Biodiversity and Canadian Wildlife Services, Department of the Environment
I can start. I'll answer in English if that's okay.
Conservative
Assistant Deputy Minister, Biodiversity and Canadian Wildlife Services, Department of the Environment
The order cannot guarantee an outcome. However, it is our experience with existing orders that the populations of the targeted species have not declined and I think in most cases have actually improved in terms of outcomes. I'm talking about not just....
This would be the first order with respect to boreal caribou, but we do have orders in place respecting other species, those being the sage grouse in the Prairies and the western chorus frog in two locations in Quebec.
I can ask if my colleague Nicholas Winfield would like to add any precision to that, if you'd like.
Nicholas Winfield Director General, Canadian Wildlife Service, Department of the Environment
Sure.
It is the first step towards the recovery of the species; it is not the only step that is required to guarantee the recovery of the population.
Thank you.
Conservative
Richard Martel Conservative Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC
Everyone is talking about climate change. It's 26°C in some regions today. Some changes are caused by humans but aren't industrial. Caribou have certain preferences when it comes to locating food. What are your thoughts on that?
Do you realize that the glass dome principle won't take care of everything threatening the caribou?
Assistant Deputy Minister, Biodiversity and Canadian Wildlife Services, Department of the Environment
I'll start my response by noting that in the first instance.... I'll go back to the imminent threat assessment that we completed, which is science based. The focus of that threat assessment is on anthropogenic impacts on the species. It doesn't address all impacts, so yes, we are aware there are other factors that are impacting species.
I'll turn to Nicholas again if there's anything he would like to add from his perspective.
Director General, Canadian Wildlife Service, Department of the Environment
I don't know this term you used, the “cloche de verre”, but I assume you mean that putting a glass cover on this and then assuming you can resolve all the issues within the cover is the issue.
Each of these populations occupies a range, a historical range, a geographical area where it has existed. The scientific assessment has been about what is required to recover those populations within their historical range, taking into account human disturbance. There are habitat variables—the loss of habitat—and predator variables at play, and also the level of reproductive success.
All of those things were taken into account in assessing the impacts on the population. The proposal to advance an emergency order is one step towards recovering the population, but it is not the only measure that is required for their recovery.