Environment Committee on Sept. 18th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Give a quick answer.

[Nicholas Winfield]

This is going to be the subject of the evidence we've gathered through consultations to determine what is possible—what can be exempted and what cannot be exempted.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Mr. Martel is next.

[Richard Martel, Conservative, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Winfield, I know full well that the order is still a long way away, but I understood that there were no guarantees. Earlier, I asked you some questions, and you told me that this was a first step. If the order doesn't work out, what are you going to do?

[Nicholas Winfield]

We will only know in the future. I can't predict what we will do in the future.

First of all, we don't have an order in place now. If an order is put in place, we will continue to assess the impacts and we will determine what the next steps should be.

[Richard Martel, Conservative, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

It says that the protection requested for the caribou population in the Pipmuacan area is intended to prevent us from ending up in a situation similar to the one in Charlevoix in 10 years. We agree on that. However, how can we assume that, in 10 years, the situation could be similar to the one in Charlevoix, when I'm told that there is only one reference inventory for the Pipmuacan sector, done in 2019?

[Nicholas Winfield]

I'm trying to understand the question. I think you are referring to how much certainty we have that the actions we are proposing will prevent the reduction in the population, and the answer to that question is that it is only when there is sufficient habitat for the animals to survive that we have a likelihood of protecting the population.

I cannot guarantee the outcome, but without habitat, the animals have no possibility of reversing their population decline.

[Richard Martel, Conservative, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Does the economic analysis take into account the ripple effects?

There has been such an impact on the forestry sector recently that this new decline in logging availability means more than just a downfall. It means the difference between making a profit and taking a loss. There could really be a complete shutdown of the sector.

[Derek Hermanutz]

I would respond by saying that in the analysis we do look at the direct jobs, and the indirect jobs as well, at the macro level, and we do acknowledge that over the last decade there have been challenges facing the Quebec forest sector due to other external factors—lumber price volatility, tariffs—and employment has fallen over the last decade by nearly 7%.

[Richard Martel, Conservative, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

In the analysis, it says that the workforce is aging. We are talking about 27.7% in the forestry sector versus 23.3% in other sectors. It's not clear: Do you consider that a mitigating or aggravating factor?

[Derek Hermanutz]

I think it's just one of the pieces of context that we wanted to put into the analysis. We're looking at this specific order, but we want to put it in the frame of the challenges that the Quebec forest sector is facing.

[Richard Martel, Conservative, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

To my mind, this is definitely an aggravating factor.

Have you considered the fact that the forestry sector is one of the main economic activities in the country's most aging regions?

[Derek Hermanutz]

We haven't looked at other sectors in this analysis. We were just focusing on the forestry and mines.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

Ms. Taylor Roy will end this hour.

Go ahead, Ms. Taylor Roy. You have five minutes.

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here.

I just want to say, Mr. Winfield, that I appreciate that you ended the last question by saying that the boreal caribou have no chance if an emergency order is not put in place. We may question what the probability of success is of this program, but we know they will not be here. They'll be extirpated if we do not do something.

As you know, from 2002, this species has been on the species at risk list. There's so much work that's been done over the years, and as several witnesses have said, these animals are the most studied of any in Canada. We know a lot about them.

There seems to be this tension attached to short-term profitability and job retention. Of course, jobs are very important. In fact, our government has created more jobs than any other government, but it's the role of government to look at the longer term and not just at short-term profit. I'm wondering if you could put this in context in terms of these jobs in the forestry sector.

When we have a Sustainable Jobs Act in place and we know that there has to be a transition and the health of these forests is so linked to the health of the caribou, are these jobs going to be there longer than another two or three years, say, if the caribou are extinct and these circumstances of climate change, forest fires and all these other things continue to grow? Are we looking at just a short-term solution as opposed to a long-term solution when we simply focus on saving the jobs and the types of jobs that are there today, rather than looking at long-term employment for these communities that are so important?

[Tara Shannon]

I don't feel we're well placed to speak to the future of the forestry industry in and of itself. To your point about the boreal caribou and their health being an indicator of the health of the forests, that is something I think we need to be taking into account and paying attention to, not only for the caribou but also for the future existence of the forests.

I would add that in the process of the consultations, we have, of course, been hearing from union members about the importance of balancing the protection of the caribou with the health of the sector and we have been acknowledging that their desire is to have a sustainable forestry sector.

I'll leave it there.

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you.

I know this request for the emergency order was put forward by several first nations in Quebec, and they've been very concerned about the health of the boreal caribou. As I said, we've known about this for a long time.

Is there any indication that the lumber companies, the forestry companies and the pulp and paper companies have actually been taking action to address this issue in and of themselves?

We hear a lot that we don't need big government and we don't need government to intervene at all; we just need companies to make a profit and all will be well. I'm wondering what the companies have done to ensure that their forestry industry will have long-term sustainability and provide jobs for workers in the long term, not just the short term.

[Tara Shannon]

That's a question probably best directed to my colleagues at the Canadian Forest Service, who are not here. I will note, though, that the minister, during his remarks, spoke to some of the innovations he's seeing in the forestry sector in Quebec and elsewhere.

Again, I'll leave the question in its entirety to colleagues from the forestry sector, who I'm sorry are not here today.

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you.

I think that's important, because they've known about these issues for a long time. I think that at times these companies do innovate, but it's only when faced with a real challenge and a hard line that they actually take the action that's needed to address some of these problems.

In terms of this balance between protecting our biodiversity, our climate and our forests on the one hand, versus short-term profit and maximum extraction on the other, we need to have these companies play a role as well. The unions and the workers seem to be on board. They want to ensure that there's a healthy forest and a long-term, sustainable industry for them and perhaps for their children to also participate in. However, we seem to be missing the full commitment of some of these forestry companies.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you very much

This ends our second hour. I want to thank the officials for being here and answering all of the members' questions.

We'll take a little break while we bring on board the next set of witnesses. It shouldn't take very long.

Thank you again.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Order, please. We're back in session.

I would like to point out that the sound tests were conducted with the witnesses who are joining us remotely via the Zoom application.

We will hear from two witnesses, including a group of three Boisaco Inc. representatives: Mr. Joyce Dionne, harvesting team worker; Mr. Joseph‑Pierre Dufour, stationary engineer; and Ms. Valérie Dufour, sales and transportation coordinator. We also welcome, in a personal capacity, Mr. Jean‑Pierre Jetté, forestry engineer.

Mr. Jetté, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Jean-Pierre Jetté, Forest Engineer, As an Individual]

Mr. Chair, ladies and gentlemen, members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to share my thoughts on boreal caribou.

I am a forest engineer, retired from the Quebec Ministry of Natural Resources and Forestry, where I worked for 30 years. I still remain active, notably working on management issues in the boreal forest.

Over the past 15 to 20 years, I have witnessed the debates concerning the fate of the boreal caribou. Throughout this period, I've always felt that the vast majority of stakeholders were keen to strike a balance, and that no one wanted to see a catastrophe for forest communities. In my opinion, this is a valuable asset to cultivate. This quest for balance certainly involves optimizing protection efforts. The borders of the areas to be protected have been redrawn a thousand times. Measures with the least impact on the industry have often been examined.

However, if we are to find a consensual solution, we also need to look at the other end of the spectrum. The current business model and its value chain must also be part of the equation. These are not immutable and must evolve. Defending the status quo at all costs is not a position conducive to compromise, especially since an evolution of the business model could make room for caribou while offering interesting economic prospects. We owe it to ourselves to explore this path.

Several players in the forestry world are talking about the need for a just transition. I agree, but I would add that a concrete and rigorous discussion on the subject is undeniably part of a consensus-building process. What we need to do now is to move beyond general ideas and start drawing up a just transition plan. In my opinion, such a plan should have three components.

First, short-term mitigation measures must be put in place to offset immediate impacts. Several options are possible. One example is the possibility of revising plant supply structures. This has already been done in the past. In addition, silvicultural programs requiring the workforce usually involved in harvesting are conceivable. In addition, other regional worksites could provide employment for certain categories of workers; I'm thinking of wind farms, among others.

The second and most important aspect concerns the industrial transition itself. The sawmilling industry is already in a process of consolidation. In this context, there will be winners with more profitable mills, but there will also be losers with villages that will see their mills close. This is when we need to consider the development of new niches based on a value-added approach, or on the exploitation of wood that is currently available but underutilized by the industry. There are significant quantities of wood to be valorized. Wood chemistry could offer interesting options.

Finally, the third component consists of making adjustments to ensure a predictable supply for the next industrial generation. A number of problems currently compromise the expected wood supply, even disregarding caribou. The debate surrounding the order should lead to the creation of a working group to prepare a transition plan. To be successful, this group should call on independent experts and ensure transparency in its approach. It will also need financial support from both levels of government. It won't be an easy task, and the results are uncertain, but I refuse to believe that they will be zero. If not, what's the other option?

It takes a touch of naiveté to think that the caribou controversy will slowly die out as the last individuals are put into enclosures. If a credible plan to protect the caribou is not put in place soon, the conflict will persist and eventually become more radical. One consequence of this will be to put off investors. Yet they are essential players in the modernization of a timber industry that we hope will be robust and sustainable for the benefit of forest communities. Let's take advantage of the fact that everyone wants this future for the communities, and include all the ingredients in the discussion. That way, we'll be able to find a solution that truly brings people together.

I think my main message is to say that there are options, and this may be the only way forward we have.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you, Mr. Jetté.

We will now hear from the representatives of Boisaco.

Mr. Dufour, you have the floor.

[Joseph-Pierre Dufour, Stationary Engineer, Boisaco Inc.]

Good evening. My name is Joseph‑Pierre Dufour.

After 40 years of development, our current structure, which utilizes renewable forest resources, now uses 100% of the material. Although we are dependent on a single resource, its value is applied in a variety of economic sectors.

If you're already familiar with the Sacré‑Coeur complex, you'll know that in addition to the Boisaco plant, which produces lumber, it also includes the Sacopan plant, which uses the shavings to produce door panels, Granulco, which uses them to design pellets, and Ripco, which transforms wood shavings into equestrian bedding. To ensure that nothing goes to waste, our thermal power plants and boiler rooms burn the bark for our heat-intensive processes and, finally, send the ash to local farmers. I believe our complex is an exemplary model, supported by the local community and based on a vision of sustainable development.

The proposed emergency order jeopardizes over 600 direct jobs, hundreds of indirect jobs, contractors and businesses. Many families would be affected by the disappearance of the region's only economic engine. With a population of 5,000 spread over four municipalities, it's obvious that this would be catastrophic for the Haute‑Côte‑Nord and would also have negative repercussions for the Saguenay and Charlevoix regions.

Let's face it, we're not going to reinvent the Haute‑Côte‑Nord economy overnight. We're not in a major centre, but in a relatively isolated and remote region, where interesting jobs in our respective trades are hundreds of kilometres away. What's most likely to happen if worse comes to worst is that many families will leave for other regions, because here, there won't really be any jobs left to support them.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Dufour and Mr. Dionne, you have three minutes in total.