Environment Committee on Sept. 25th, 2024

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Thank you for your professionalism, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Go ahead, Mr. Longfield.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to Parks Canada for being here.

Mr. Shepherd, thank you for the incredible work you've done on behalf of Canada.

Minister, briefly, could you describe the governance around this issue? You mentioned adaptation. Forest fires are increasing, and climate change is going to continue that trajectory for decades while we fight the crisis that we're in with climate change.

I've heard in the House that the increased cost on pollution we're putting in place to try to bend the curve on climate change didn't stop the forest fires.

Could you talk about the governance that we're putting in place, the trajectory that we're trying to change and how we're working with firefighters, with national parks and with provincial and municipal counterparts?

It's hard to paint that picture in a few minutes, but if you could start on that, then I'd like to go over to Mr. Shepherd about some of the operational details.

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

There are some in the House of Commons from the Conservative Party who think that there's an on-off switch for climate change on a wall somewhere, or some fairy dust we can sprinkle on this. There used to be a time when the Conservative Party of Canada believed that hard things were hard.

For example, former prime minister Brian Mulroney helped the world agree to the Montreal Protocol on ozone depletion in 1987. Scientists estimate that by 2070 or 2080, the ozone layer will have recovered from decades of abuse. It will have taken almost a century.

Climate change is not something that's going to be stopped overnight. It's going to take years and years of hard work, something that they're incapable of even understanding, but that's what we're doing and that's why we're deploying all those measures.

Yes, emissions are at their lowest level in 25 years. We've never seen greenhouse gas emissions in Canada go down unless it was because of a financial crisis, an economic recession or COVID. Now they are going down; they are 8% below 2005 levels, and they will continue going down.

I don't want to take up too much time. Perhaps I can pass it over to you, Mr. Shepherd, to talk about some of the inter-agency co-operation we have with Alberta, the town of Jasper and others.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Thank you, and thank you, Mr. Shepherd.

I'm watching you listen to our conversation. We are not here to blame you or your staff. The work you're doing is incredible. We need to know more details.

As we look forward to what next year and the year after that will look like, what are we learning operationally? How can we further support the work you're doing on behalf of Canadians?

[Landon Shepherd]

At our local, regional, provincial and interprovincial levels, we were able to operationally have a very tight co-operative relationship.

I'm sorry to hear that this wasn't being communicated, because it really meant a lot to have the support from British Columbia and Alberta, just as we supported them in some of their really hard years: in 2021 in B.C., last year in the Northwest Territories and Alberta, and again this year in Alberta. We're going to have to keep doing that; it is functioning and working.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

It was mentioned earlier that the budget had money in it. The budget was passed in the spring. The budget then has to be implemented, and people have to be hired and equipment has to be purchased. Where are we in that process of investing?

We have the fall economic statement coming up and we have another budget coming up, so I think it's a good time to talk about what progress we are seeing in terms of implementing the budget and what we need to look at for next year.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

You have about 30 seconds.

[Andrew Campbell]

We began the implementation because we have had a long train of funding that we have put in place in Jasper. We have had a long train of getting prepared and getting those resources on the ground.

One of the things we always have to consider is how we get people trained all across the country. We've put new programs in place in order to do that training. We have new centres in Banff that we have invested in.

As for having more equipment, there is more equipment, as I was saying, like high-powered sprinkler systems that were protecting the town of Jasper. There have been lots of implementation efforts made.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

Madam Pauzé, go ahead.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Is my speaking time two and a half minutes, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Yes, exactly.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Mr. Shepherd, thank you very much for going out there. Mr. Campbell, I don't know if you were there also.

I'm reminded of the thought of a firefighter who was present at the Lac-Mégantic tragedy. Years later, he was still reliving the scene. It's like post-traumatic shock. I imagine that's what happened to you too, after seeing a town burn down. It was a beautiful city; I know, I've been there. I want you to know that you have my full sympathy, and I thank you for being here to talk about it again.

Minister, I'd now like to talk to you about climate change and, of course, the federal government's strategy for dealing with it. In this case, Jasper was the one that burned down. What will be the next town or park to burn?

In July 2023, you said the federal government's strategy had three phases. The first was to suspend Canada's international assistance to the fossil fuel industry. The second was to end inefficient hydrocarbon subsidies. By the fall of 2024, you were to unveil your plan to phase out public funding of Canada's fossil fuel sector. Here we are, fall is here. When will we be able to see the plan that was promised in July 2023? Also, what is the third phase of the plan?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

You're right, there were indeed three phases. The first phase, in 2022, was about suspending international funding; the second phase, in 2023, with the help of the NDP, was about eliminating direct government subsidies; and the third phase is about public funding.

You say, quite rightly, that we're committed to doing this by the fall of 2024. Well, it's early fall. We're working with agencies like Export Development Canada and the Business Development Bank of Canada to put these new measures in place.

I would like to remind you that we are the only G20 country committed to eliminating these fossil fuel subsidies. None of our other partners has done so to date.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

You surely know, Minister, that I don't really believe in the “effective subsidy, ineffective subsidy” tandem. We know that increasing oil and gas production invariably increases greenhouse gas emissions and disrupts the climate. This production is at the heart of what causes forest fires. But if less is asked of the oil and gas industries, all other industries will have to do more.

What happens when oil and gas production increases greenhouse gases?

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Unfortunately, we don't have time for a reply. We've really gone over the two-and-a-half-minute mark. Perhaps Ms. McPherson will ask the minister to answer Ms. Pauzé's question. We often do that here at the committee; we help each other out.

Ms. McPherson, you have the floor.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much.

It is very difficult for those of us with two and a half minutes, and I'm going to ask some very, very quick questions.

First of all, since I have you here, Minister, you will know that one of the biggest threats to the Rocky Mountains right now is coal mining. It was in your mandate letter that you would stop thermal coal exportation, and that has not happened. In fact, it has increased. It is a risk for the people of Jasper and for all of Albertans and should be for all Canadians.

Can you explain why that hasn't been done, why none of those steps have been taken and why none of the alignment in protecting waterways from selenium has happened?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Well, you will know that we are the government that has legislated to phase out the production of electricity through coal. It was we who did that—

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

It was actually Rachel Notley from the Alberta NDP who started that process.

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Actually, in all fairness, Ontario started a long time before Alberta did. I'm from Quebec, so I'm not taking sides here.

Second, our commitment for the export phase-out is by 2030. We're working on it. We're in 2024. We still have some time ahead of us.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Your plan is to continue to just increase the exportation of thermal coal until 2030? That's our strategy, is it?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Our plan is as committed: to phase it out by 2030.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

You would want to start decreasing that.

Anyway, I'm going to go on to the next question.

As I mentioned earlier, Danielle Smith, of the Conservative government in Alberta, has cut firefighting supports by $30 million. Did the federal government have to contribute in order to make up for that shortfall? What was the cost of that?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

As you rightly pointed out earlier, I've stated some of the amounts of money we've invested. Obviously, the federal government can and should do a lot on that, but we can't do it all. It's important for provincial governments and territorial governments to step up to the plate as well. It is sad to see some governments not doing that.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

One of my concerns is that we know the Government of Alberta has failed to support the firefighting initiatives in our province. They've also failed to spend the money on cleaning up wells. They've also failed to protect the mountains from coal mining.

What's the federal government's role when the provincial government fails to do anything possible to protect the environment in one of the provinces of this country?