Evidence of meeting #123 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was fire.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
I don't think he's at all.... I'm sensitive to the badgering of witnesses. I don't think it's really that severe in Mr. Mazier's case.
Go ahead.
Bloc
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
Can you hear the French interpretation? It's fine? Okay.
Mr. Mazier, please continue, but give the minister the chance to respond.
Conservative
Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB
Just for clarification, I ask you again, Minister, when were you first informed that Minister Guilbeault's department was discussing cancelling prescribed burns because of political optics?
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
I can only tell you what I was briefed on when I visited Jasper. I knew what the emergency response—
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
I don't get into what takes place in each community across the country. We look at responding—
Liberal
Leah Taylor Roy Liberal Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON
Thank you very much.
Thank you to the minister and the officials for being here again.
At the last meeting we heard about the heroic efforts and the amount of coordination that was done. We also heard from Mr. Landon Shepherd, who was on the ground in Jasper.
You talked a lot about the collaboration and coordination. We heard about that last week as well. We also heard that the Alberta government had decided to reduce its firefighting budget by $30 million. Was that ever discussed, and did that have an impact? We heard that certain types of equipment that were there were not available. Was there ever a conversation about the need to keep increasing the budgets for firefighting, rather than decreasing them?
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Alberta actually collaborates really well when it comes to not only wildfires but emergency management. In fact, in emergency preparedness, especially when an emergency is called, I've never had to deal with any partisan issues. We deal with the emergency and we work very closely together. I have to say that my closest relationship is actually with Minister Ellis. It's one reason that when we were informed of what was taking place, I decided to go to Edmonton to work with Minister Ellis and to coordinate our resources directly.
They made all resources available as quickly as possible, and again I want to commend them for their efforts. The premier was with us when we got that briefing, and I have to say that the briefing we got, the preparation and the work done were actually far greater than I witnessed in any other place.
If it weren't for the fire-smarting, preparation and training, the entire town could have been lost. The interesting part was that the Parks Canada folks had Canada task force 2 from Calgary there and also Alberta Wildfire working very closely. Very direct questions were asked. In fact, everybody talked about not only how well the preparation was taking place, but some members even talked about how they need to look at utilizing this in other parts of the province and even across the country.
Liberal
Leah Taylor Roy Liberal Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON
Thank you. It's fantastic to hear that collaboration was there and everyone worked together so smoothly.
There was talk of certain equipment, like water bombers, not being available—I guess they're called water bombers or air tanker groups—from either Alberta or British Columbia at that time. Would that have made a difference if they had been there, given the nature of the fire?
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
No. In fact, water bombers were made available.
Deryck runs the government operations centre and can provide more details.
Water bombers were actually made available. Everybody looks at us, asking “Why weren't they used?” It's the incident commander on the ground who has to take a look at when it's safe to do so. When we visited, they clearly showed that it would have been absolutely dangerous for them to use the water bombers at that time. Helicopters that had night vision capability were also made available as well, but it's the incident commander on the ground who has to make the decision.
Deryck, do you want to elaborate on that?
Deryck Trehearne Director General, Government Operations Centre, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
I'm happy to be here. I'm Deryck Trehearne from the government operations centre.
The minister is correct. Those decisions were made by the incident commander, and there was a unified command that was set up there with the municipality, the province and Parks Canada as well. They make those calls. There were no shortages of water bombers or equipment across the country this summer. We had a very significant fire season, which I'm happy to speak about at length, but there were no major gaps in availability of either firefighters or equipment.
We saw fires across the country, starting in the east and moving west. The west obviously got 60% or 70% of the fires this year, but Alberta, Saskatchewan, B.C. and others have some of the strongest emergency management agencies in the country and have significant assets at their disposal.
Those are decisions that are made on the ground, but we never saw any shortages during the season.
Liberal
Leah Taylor Roy Liberal Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON
I have just one quick last question about the prescribed burns versus mechanical clearing, because I think that was the decision being discussed by the Minister of Environment.
I understand 1,700 hectares were cleared. Would everybody who was fighting or preparing, who lived in Jasper and the area, have been involved in making those decisions about whether to do more and whether it would be done through burns, given the heat, or through mechanical clearing? Who would have made those decisions?
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Our focus was on the emergencies, making sure that the resources were there.
Obviously Parks Canada can explain. However, I can tell you about the briefing that all of us received when we were on the ground. What I looked at, especially, was also from Alberta Wildfire service. They were also there. The preparation made was actually quite extensive, and that situation would have been worse.
When it comes to the management of fire-smarting, decisions about the best way to do it have to be made by a community. I'll give you an example. Yes, controlled burns are done, but at the same time, in the Yukon, through their preparations they moved it mechanically and turned it into more of an economic opportunity.
Each community has to decide how they want to do it, but let's not forget that the vegetation—what needs to grow and how it needs to be done—are also dependent on each area across the country as well.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
Thank you, Ms. Taylor Roy.
Ms. Pauzé, you now have the floor.
Bloc
Monique Pauzé Bloc Repentigny, QC
I want to thank all the witnesses for joining us.
We need to understand what happened so that it doesn't happen again in other places, such as in our area. The events that took place affect everyone.
Minister, public safety is your specialty. Public safety is now confronted with multiple risks tied to the impact of global warming. I think that you touched on this topic in your remarks. A devastating event took place in a populated area that may face another major event in the future.
The document provided by the Library of Parliament analysts, whom I want to thank, refers to the testimony given to this committee last February by John Pomeroy, a distinguished professor and scientist. He said that this year's drought was alarming. He also said that the snowpack was 70% below average and that last year saw record glacier melt. He added that groundwater levels had never been so low, that water reservoirs in the Rockies were five metres lower than they should have been and that the level of some reservoirs was so low that municipalities couldn't draw water from them through their pipes and had to truck in water instead.
I think that this really illustrates the fact that climate change is upon us. We always hear that it's a few years away, but it isn't. It's here.
We should also keep in mind the mountain pine beetle.
How could the department provide room to manoeuvre and take concrete action in the years ahead?
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
First of all, what I can tell you is that the mitigation and the fire-smarting are done by other departments. My role is to respond to the emergency, but what I can tell you is about the mayor of Jasper. He explained to us thoroughly that this was the number one concern, and they have been working on this for decades. The fire-smarting that has been done was done very professionally, and everything that they could do was being done.
When it comes to the pine beetles and the drought, we made it very clear from early on, as we were giving updates from the forecasts we were seeing, that it was going to be a devastating, very hot summer. In British Columbia, we dealt with the mountain pine beetle situation well before, and we've been dealing with a lot of these things. Sadly, in British Columbia, where I'm from, there have been a lot of wildfire situations that have been dealt with, and different fire-smarting has been done there.
Yes, there's a lot of work that needs to be done across the country, working with the provinces and territories, but I can't give you the exact answer on—
Bloc
Monique Pauzé Bloc Repentigny, QC
Thank you for your response. I'll stop you there, since I have two more questions for you.
In your opinion, what challenges has Public Safety Canada successfully overcome in Jasper?
What issues can be mitigated or avoided so that this doesn't happen again or so that the situation is less critical next time?
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
When we visited, there were deeper lessons learned on Jasper. According to the forecast of where the winds and where the fire would potentially come from, all the fire-smarting was done, but we were told that the winds were higher than they had ever faced before. That was the reason for the pine cones and the dust. On the ground itself, which people got to see alongside the premier, there were trees that were knocked over because of the wind.
Liberal