Environment Committee on Oct. 9th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Good afternoon, everyone.

I'd like to welcome our first panel, which is related to our study of the factors leading to the recent fires in Jasper National Park.

We have with us Mr. Ken Hodges, testifying as an individual. From the Alberta Fire Chiefs Association, we have Randy Schroeder, president. From the Department of Natural Resources, we have Glenn Hargrove, assistant deputy minister, Canadian forest service; Michael Norton, director general, northern forestry centre, who is online; and Dan Thompson, research scientist, forest fires, in person. From Forests Ontario, we have Jessica Kaknevicius, chief executive officer, also online.

Each witness or group of witnesses will have five minutes for opening statements.

We'll start with you, Mr. Hodges, for five minutes.

Before we start, for the witnesses who are here in person, we take good care not to damage the hearing of our interpreters, so please refrain from touching the stem of your microphone. If you are taking your earpiece off, please put it face down on the round decal that you'll find on the desk.

Mr. Hodges, the floor is yours.

[Ken Hodges, As an Individual]

Thank you very much for having me here to speak about the experiences that I had prior to the fire.

I'd like to just note that I'm not here for political reasons. I'm here to provide information around the activities that occurred around the Jasper fire of July 22, 2024. I'd also like to note that my experience at that time was as a registered professional forester out of B.C. Currently, I am neither registered nor am I practising forestry. Also, I'd like to note that I'm neither a researcher nor a scientist. I was a registered professional forester, which is very different.

In relation to my work, I have 45 years of forest management experience. In relation to this beetle stuff and the fires, I have fire management experience in fighting fires, from spot fires up to project fires of 40,000 hectares or more. I was responsible for approving burning plans, approving ignition of those burning plans, and strategizing in the management of mountain pine beetles, including fall and burn and working with licensees in harvest strategies from baiting and logging to harvest strategies.

I'd like to note that the beetle population went from endemic to epidemic in a very short period of time. That was a result of warmer winters and an abundance of food supply.

I was involved in strategic planning and rehabilitation of mountain pine beetle fires. I worked with researchers to assess regeneration and cone viability after the beetle attacks, including secondary structure.

My related work is really diverse and includes silviculture, recreation, timber supply, planning and tenures. It goes on and on. We can get into a lot more detail if you so wish.

I looked at it and I have my own sense of what happened. I have an evaluation for you, from my perspective.

I found that Parks Canada staff were insufficiently trained in the situation of the beetles and the fire situation that existed in the park at the time. They are park rangers; they are not trained, experienced professional foresters.

The beetle program was a good start, but it was too little, too late. That was presented by Dr. Allan Carroll in a news article in Jasper. If they had looked at B.C., talked to the province and followed its recommendation in a timely manner, it would have potentially made a bit of a difference.

Nothing was done to address the landscape of the beetle-killed timber to prevent the megafire of July 22, 2024. What was done was insignificant and poorly thought out. It did nothing to protect the town from the Jasper fire complex. Even the work done would not be enough to stop a raging fire out of the west or the south in beetle stands. The town would have burned anyway.

The FireSmart program needs to be more than just cosmetic. If a community is serious about being fire-smart, then it should do more than a cosmetic approach of just removing a few trees or shrubbery.

There was communication with a fellow by the name of Rob Moore, who was an incident commander with 39 years of experience. His comment was that the fire complex was mismanaged in the first two days of the fire, from Monday, July 22, to Wednesday, July 24. He said that the fire complex was under-resourced and underestimated absolutely to the reality of fire science. That was a personal communication with Rob Moore.

Now, some of the recommendations I thought would be very beneficial are as follows.

Reform the Parks Canada structure and mandate.

Balance the value of social, economic and environmental issues when developing any type of strategy or plan. It cost almost a billion dollars in losses in Jasper—that's the latest estimate I've heard—not to mention the cost to the people who lost their homes, which resulted in stress, depression and potential suicides. Partial logging in mixed stands, with pruning and fuel management, costs about $500 a hectare. You can do about 10,000 hectares for about $5 million, so you can put some value there. The question I have is, where was the $80 million that was noted by the minister spent in relation to this fire?

Support those in the know—those who know the field and operations. Develop a plan that looks after the resources, with the communities as the primary objectives—so you can have a zonation—while addressing the balance of values to achieve ecological integrity. Have Parks Canada plans reviewed by professional foresters. The recommendation is to hire well-trained and experienced professionals familiar with the landscape in parks needing forest professional support.

Ensure that you have sufficient well-trained resources of staff and contractors, as well as equipment, to fight the fires. Don't depend upon provinces or others for their assistance, as they may be fighting their own battles.

Noting that there are two million hectares—

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Excuse me, Mr. Hodges, but we're unfortunately going to have to stop there. You'll be able to share some more ideas and recommendations in response to questions. I'm sure there will be quite a few questions.

[Ken Hodges]

May I make one more statement?

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Sure. Go ahead.

[Ken Hodges]

I actually encourage the committee to join me in Jasper to look at beetle stands, burnt stands and the community. This is where foresters are and where decisions are generally made.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

Mr. Schroeder, the floor is yours for five minutes.

[Randy Schroeder, President, Alberta Fire Chiefs Association]

Good afternoon.

Thank you, Chair, for the opportunity to present to the Standing Committee on Environment and Sustainable Development.

My name is Randy Schroeder. I'm a fire chief. I'm the president of the Alberta Fire Chiefs Association and vice-chair of the CAFC national advisory council.

I want to begin by expressing my deepest gratitude to the first responders, including the many municipal fire services, the RCMP, sheriffs, EMS, contractors, the Alberta emergency management agency, Alberta Wildfire, Canada Task Force 2 and Parks Canada, who were all on the front lines during the incident. These brave individuals risked their own well-being to protect the town of Jasper, assisting in the evacuation of thousands and aiding in the ongoing recovery efforts.

I would also like to extend my special thanks to fire chief Mathew Conte of the Jasper Fire Department, who displayed extraordinary leadership and resilience throughout the crisis, despite the personal loss of his own home.

The AFCA has passed resolutions advocating that the Alberta government improve wildfire management by developing a long-term strategy for the resourcing and management of wildland fire events outside Alberta's forest protection areas, and inside as well. These resolutions call for the establishment of a working group consisting of subject matter experts, elected officials and senior municipal administrators to collaborate on this strategy. We're also collaborating with our municipal associations in this advocacy.

While the resolutions focus on the areas outside of the forest protection area, Alberta ministers Ellis' and Loewen's responses led to a recent increase in resources, budget and work toward the creation of a provincial wildfire mitigation strategy, on which the Alberta Fire Chiefs Association has provided input.

The AFCA is advocating to increase response readiness with an increase in wildland urban interface teams across the province. These teams proved critical in saving the historic Jasper Park Lodge, among other infrastructure in Jasper.

Alberta's wildfire season has been starting earlier, lasting longer and affecting larger areas in recent years, creating significant pressure on municipalities and forest services within and outside the FPA. Across the province, we consistently advocate for greater promotion of public education and greater financial support of FireSmart by increasing staffing and growing the program with coordinators at a local level throughout the province, creating public incentives and so on.

On a national level, we have also passed similar resolutions through the Canadian Association of Fire Chiefs, advocating for accessible, combined curriculum training to provide commonality and standardization among several entities, including Alberta's wildland urban interface training guidelines, the NFPA, the IAAF, the CIFFC and local municipal agencies. Multiple curricula pose a challenge to fire chiefs, who must balance the burden of time to train a volunteer among a host of other training requirements, and provide and sustain a local service level. The lack of coordination between these training resources presents challenges in standardization and available training.

The AFCA will refrain from commenting on the incident management specifics of this incident, recognizing the complexities the incident presented. The logistical geographical challenges, topography, fire behaviour, weather conditions, multi-jurisdictional governance and differentiating fuel types, along with the diverse agencies from across the province and beyond, were challenging in every way possible. Combine that with an interface that posed the challenges of protecting a community filled with historically important but very flammable construction and numerous buildings with cedar and pine shake roofs, clad with wooden siding, built with lightweight construction and beautified with flammable vegetation in almost every yard.

It was a testament to the efforts of all on the ground that so much was saved, including all of the town's critical infrastructure.

We all have a responsibility to increase our resiliency to fire. Government agencies, fire services, businesses and residents share in a combined effort to change our collective approach and behaviour in community planning, development and design, as well as in implementing change to what is already built. It is imperative that we apply rigorous risk assessment practices, effective fire management and appropriate funding to ensure that community protection measures are in place.

Finally, the AFCA supports the Canadian Association of Fire Chiefs' advocacy for the creation of a national fire administration. This national fire administration would serve as the nucleus of future national emergency management responses. It would be an organization entailing three types of coordination: between fire departments and federal departments on the fire, life safety and emergency management implications of national priority; between wildfire agencies and structural fire departments at a national level; and between—

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

I'm sorry, Mr. Schroeder. We're well over time. I'm going to have to stop you there and go to the Department of Natural Resources.

I assume it's Mr. Hargrove who will be speaking.

Go ahead, please. You have five minutes.

[Glenn Hargrove, Assistant Deputy Minister, Canadian Forest Service, Department of Natural Resources]

Thank you, Mr. Chair and committee, for this invitation. I'm grateful to be here to support this discussion on factors leading to the recent fires in Jasper National Park.

This is taking place on the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

The Canadian forest service at Natural Resources Canada plays an important, ongoing role in wildland fire management. We're the Government of Canada's primary source of federal wildland fire technical and scientific expertise. The CFS delivers essential functions to support wildland fire management across the country. This includes subject matter expertise to inform government reporting and response, the delivery of tools and information for national situational awareness and decision support, leadership on national strategic wildland fire policies and frameworks, and international engagement on wildland fire. We also work closely with other federal departments, such as Public Safety and Parks Canada.

Just days after the Jasper fire began, officials at Parks Canada requested support from CFS to study the factors that caused the rapid escalation and extreme fire behaviour taking place. CFS researchers and technicians were on site to conduct an analysis by August 1. Analysis is ongoing, and a report is in development. Research activity is concentrated on a number of aspects, including understanding the factors that contributed to the rapid ignition, acceleration, intensity and spread of the fire, its spread direction, the influence of wood killed by the mountain pine beetle on fuel consumption and fire intensity, and identifying areas of extreme fire behaviour.

There are some initial findings. Fire activity was exacerbated by conditions such as historic levels of drought, extreme high temperatures and low humidity, an abundance of dry fuels, and extreme fire-induced wind speeds that drove the fire to spread.

Wildland fire is a growing risk across Canada. Research tells us that we will continue to experience larger, more extreme fire events and behaviour in the coming years. We know that 2023 was off the charts in terms of fire activity and total area burned, and it looks like 2024 will rank second for total area burned over the last 20 years. This makes the work we are doing to transform wildland fire management more critical than ever. Programs such as the fighting and managing wildfires in a changing climate program and the wildfire resilient futures initiative are providing investments for community-based prevention and mitigation in order to build response and preparedness capacity while stimulating whole-of-society engagement that will contribute to wildfire resilience.

Through bodies such as the Canadian Council of Forest Ministers, or CCFM, and the Canadian Interagency Forest Fire Centre, also known as CIFFC, we work in continuous partnership with provinces and territories to ensure we are prepared to respond to wildland fire emergencies, and to build Canada's resilience over the longer term. Utilizing our scientific foundation, this includes delivery of cost-shared federal investments for specialized wildland fire equipment and firefighting training, as well as programming, prevention and mitigation. It also includes work with the CCFM to deliver Canada's first-ever wildland fire prevention and mitigation strategy, released this past June.

I am happy to be here with Dr. Dan Thompson, who is leading CFS research activities in Jasper, and director general Mike Norton, the lead for NRCan's wildland fire risk management program. He is joining us virtually to answer any questions you may have related to our ongoing analysis of the Jasper wildfire and the work under way to increase Canada's overall resilience to wildland fire.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you very much, Mr. Hargrove.

We'll now go to Jessica Kaknevicius from Forests Ontario.

[Jessica Kaknevicius, Chief Executive Officer, Forests Ontario]

Thank you.

Good afternoon, and thank you for having me today. My name is Jess Kaknevicius, and I am the CEO of Forests Ontario, a non-profit charity dedicated to conserving, restoring and growing Canada’s forests to sustain life and communities.

I'm calling today from the traditional territories of the Mississaugas of the Credit, the Anishinabe, the Chippewa, the Haudenosaunee and the Wendat peoples, now known as Toronto.

For the past 75 years, we have partnered with thousands of landowners to restore and steward their forests while providing meaningful education and community experiences. Our goal is to foster a deeper understanding of and connection to our forests. Every tree we plant is a crucial step in the collective action needed to mitigate the harmful effects of climate change and extreme weather. We are inspired to plant trees because our children and future generations deserve a world that is equitable, healthy and vibrant. While trees alone aren’t the only solution, they are certainly a vital part of it.

Before delving deeper into the role of forests, I want to acknowledge the significant impact the recent fires in Jasper have had on local communities. The destruction has affected not only properties but also the long-term well-being of the people of Jasper. Fire is frightening, and losing one’s home is devastating. We must recognize that a community has been deeply impacted, and they will need time to heal and rebuild.

I will start off by saying I am in no way an expert on fire. I have a background in forestry and over 20 years in the sector. I have experienced and learned from many in this field, and I am fortunate enough to have colleagues and partners who share their wisdom with me.

Fire is a natural process in the boreal forest, but last year's season prompted the public to question why these fires were occurring with such severity. There are many factors contributing to this, which I know you have discussed over the past few weeks, ranging from forest management and fire suppression to the broader impacts of climate change and the lack of resources for effective wildfire planning and management.

As we continue to face the consequences of climate change, including unprecedented wildfires both in Canada and around the world, it is imperative that we take action. This includes creating healthy, new forests and managing the diversity and health of our existing forests.

Today, I want to focus on recovery. Our organization is committed to collaborating with our partners to ensure that appropriate forest restoration activities occur after significant disturbances such as these fires. Over the past 20 years, Forests Ontario has supported the planting of more than 46 million trees, including through our national division, Forest Recovery Canada.

We believe that effective restoration begins with choosing the right seedlings for the long-term success of any planting project, and this starts with the seed source. That's why we emphasize the critical importance of selecting the right seeds for our restoration efforts. The trees we plant today must thrive in our current climate, but we also need to consider future conditions to ensure that our forests remain resilient. By planting climate-appropriate species, we enhance our chances for lasting success.

Forests Ontario is committed to leveraging scientific research, collaborating effectively with indigenous communities to incorporate traditional knowledge, and implementing best practices. We recognize that these elements are critical for the long-term success of any restoration project. Our commitment to collaboration and knowledge sharing ensures that we make informed decisions on the landscape.

Forest recovery is essential for us to continue investing in, as newly growing trees play a crucial role in climate mitigation by sequestering carbon. They also stabilize soils, reduce the risk of floods, build community resilience and have the potential to develop into long-lived forest products that continue to store carbon.

Much like fire prevention and management, the stewardship of our forests is a long-term endeavour. We must think beyond the year a tree is planted and focus on the ongoing management of these sites to ensure their resilience. This long-term management requires sustained investments, prompting us to adopt a longer-term perspective in all of our work.

My three recommendations today are as follows.

The first is long-term investment. Investments in our forests must be maintained over the long term. Whether for forest restoration, forest management or fire management and prevention, a one-time investment is insufficient to ensure the ongoing health of our forest ecosystems, especially as climate change increases pressures on them.

The second is the importance of restoration. We cannot underestimate the need for restoration. Forests are vital for soil stabilization, maintaining water quantity and quality, flood mitigation and proving habitat for wildlife. They also support biodiversity and ensure that communities have access to natural spaces that are crucial for mental and physical health.

My final recommendation is to integrate science and indigenous knowledge. As we work toward restoring forests, we should lead with indigenous-led practices and leverage scientific research. This approach will help us make informed decisions about the right species to plant, the appropriate methods for planting and the best practices for fostering healthy forest growth.

Thank you for inviting me today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you very much.

We'll go to the first round of questioning, which will be led off by Mr. Lloyd.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Thank you.

Mr. Hodges, in 2017 and 2018, you sent multiple letters to the Minister of Environment and Parks Canada, saying that a catastrophic wildfire in Jasper National Park was not a matter of “if”, but “when”.

In your view, did the environment minister, the government and Parks Canada take your warning seriously?

[Ken Hodges]

It's difficult to answer that question because I'm not a mind reader, but based on my experience, they really didn't respond well to us. They pushed back at us and said, “We've got this.” It was frustrating on our part, that's for sure.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Do you believe, with your 45 years of experience as a professional forester, that if Parks Canada and the government had implemented the detailed recommendations you had sent them in the multiple letters you sent, the conditions that led to the catastrophic fire that destroyed one-third of the town of Jasper would have been mitigated?

[Ken Hodges]

If they had completed some strategies around that—and they had seven years in which to do something and come up with a plan of some sort—I think they could have prevented the loss of Jasper town itself. It's just a matter of time in order to get things done, but they had plenty of time based on what actually did happen. We didn't know when it was going to happen. It finally showed up in 2024.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Some members of this committee have made the claim that it just wasn't feasible to conduct forest management practices and it was just too big of a task. Based on your experience in forestry, how long would it have taken to implement the program that you recommended to the government? How long would it have taken to make the effort to mitigate the conditions that led to this fire?

[Ken Hodges]

You'd throw a chunk of equipment at this if you wanted to do some harvesting. In the Bowron, in the late 1980s, right outside of Prince George, they had 400 trucks coming off the road. They can throw equipment at it to the nth degree if they want to, and if it's available, great. The other option is that if they had the window to burn, they could have done some burning and broken down the landscape. On the timelines, they had seven years to do it.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

That was plenty of time.

[Ken Hodges]

That was plenty of time to do it.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Thank you.

Parks Canada has talked about the 1,700 hectares that they cleared, the controlled burns that they did. Where would you have done a partial harvest? Were the places that they harvested the best places to protect the town of Jasper?

[Ken Hodges]

The work they did was basically on the west and also on the northeast part, where they did some partial harvesting in the mixed stands up there. It was good work, but the question was, would it be enough? They didn't do anything to the south, to my knowledge. I think if they had done a big chunk of work...because that was the biggest area of mountain pine beetle kill there. It was a solid state right from almost Wabasso all the way right into town. It was all standing dead, pretty much. If they had done something with that down there and broken that continual fire fuel, they would have probably prevented the fire from entering Jasper town itself.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Where do the prevailing winds usually come from in the months when fire is a risk to Jasper? What directions do they come from?

[Ken Hodges]

They generally come from the west through the pass out of B.C., and also from the south. It depends on whether you have a high-pressure system and where that sits as well.