Evidence of meeting #135 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was biodiversity.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Bloc
Monique Pauzé Bloc Repentigny, QC
I understand, but if we ask less of oil companies, they cannot help Canada reach its target of 40% to 45%. That means all other Canadian companies will have to do more, including citizens, unlike the oil and gas sector.
From our point of view, it really is perceived as an injustice.
Liberal
Steven Guilbeault Liberal Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC
It is necessary to understand the regulations correctly; they start to apply on January 1, 2026. Companies will have to reduce their emissions by 35% between now and 2030. Those are the regulatory obligations targeting oil and gas sector companies within the regulation’s framework.
Bloc
Monique Pauzé Bloc Repentigny, QC
It is good that you are talking about 2026, because if that is the reference date to set caps for 2030–2032, oil and gas sector companies will increase their emissions production. They will take advantage of it until 2026, because they know they will have to cut their emissions after that date. It seems like an incentive for companies in that sector. It encourages them to increase their greenhouse gas emissions.
Liberal
Steven Guilbeault Liberal Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC
You must understand that, in this sector, oil is a commodity. A company may well decide to increase its production, but there has to be people to buy that oil. It is a balance between supply and demand. Currently, on a global scale, we are not in a context of increasing supply.
According to the International Energy Agency, by 2030, demand for oil will decrease by about six million barrels per day. Currently, production is at about 105 million barrels per day. Don’t quote me on that, I'm telling you that from memory. A company could not increase its production, because it would have a very significant impact on prices. In fact, it would cause prices to go down, which would lead to lower company profits.
Bloc
Monique Pauzé Bloc Repentigny, QC
I will quote you Ms. Catherine McKenna, who preceded you as the head of your department a few years ago. We, at the Bloc Québécois, always come back to fossil fuel and oil company subsidies, and tax credits, in particular.
When it comes to those tax credits, Ms. McKenna’s opinion was that they never should have happened, but obviously, oil and gas lobbyists pushed for them. In her opinion, we grant privileged access to companies making historic profits. They do not invest those profits in the transition and clean solutions. They redistribute them to their shareholders, the majority of whom are not Canadian. These companies then demand that we subsidize the pollution they caused, while Canadians have to pay more for oil and gas to heat their homes.
There was a time when we talked about socializing risks and privatizing profits. Is that not what we are doing right now by generously subsidizing oil and gas companies through tax credits? I’m thinking of carbon capture and storage, obviously. It’s a matter of billions of dollars.
Liberal
Steven Guilbeault Liberal Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC
I do not have the quote from Ms. McKenna in front of me, so I cannot comment on it.
As I was saying earlier, and many international organizations recognized it, we are the only G20 country to eliminate fossil fuel subsidies, thanks specifically to the NDP’s collaboration on this file.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
Unfortunately, we will have to stop there and turn to Ms. Collins.
NDP
Laurel Collins NDP Victoria, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to the minister and the officials for being here today.
I'll just start with a yes-or-no question. Do you think Canada is on track to meet our 40% to 45% target?
Liberal
Steven Guilbeault Liberal Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC
According to the Canadian Climate Institute, yes, we are.
NDP
Laurel Collins NDP Victoria, BC
Yet, the commissioner's report, in its first line, says, “Measures implemented in Canada’s 2030 Emissions Reduction Plan remain insufficient to meet Canada’s target”.
Given that the commissioner is saying that the measures you've outlined are insufficient to get to the target, how is it that you and your officials continue to say that Canada is on track?
Liberal
Steven Guilbeault Liberal Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC
I believe that report and the commissioner—I don't have the report in front of me—specified that measures like the cap, and the clean electricity regulations would enable Canada to do more, and these measures were announced after the—
NDP
Laurel Collins NDP Victoria, BC
Yes, they would enable us to do more, but not meet our target. We are not on track. Every time you have come here, you have said that we are on track to meet our targets. Every time your officials have come here, they have said that we are on track to meet our targets. It is not true, and the environment commissioner has laid it out very clearly. We are not on track, and it is doing a disservice to Canadians to continue to say that we are. We need to do much better.
I want to switch for a moment....
NDP
Laurel Collins NDP Victoria, BC
I'm not surprised.
From January to September of this year, Environment and Climate Change Canada met with oil and gas lobbyists at least 123 times. Could you share with the committee what those meetings were about, and possibly how many meetings with oil and gas sector lobbyists were on capping omissions?
Liberal
Steven Guilbeault Liberal Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC
We can provide that information to the committee. In any case, the meetings we had were public, thanks to the lobbyist registry. It is important for us to provide the big picture, which means meeting with indigenous peoples’ representatives, NGOs, experts, workers, but also with industry representatives, specifically from the oil industry.
NDP
Liberal
Steven Guilbeault Liberal Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC
That is exactly the question you asked, Ms. Collins. We can provide that to the committee, no problem.
NDP
Laurel Collins NDP Victoria, BC
Do you think the oil sector lobbyists’ goal was to abolish or delay the emissions cap? After all, they tried to convince our committee that it was not necessary when they testified in June.
Liberal
Steven Guilbeault Liberal Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC
Whatever those lobbyists wanted, they didn’t get it, because we tabled draft regulations on capping the oil and gas sector’s greenhouse gas emissions, despite the fact that they did not want it.
NDP
Laurel Collins NDP Victoria, BC
Don’t you think that constantly listening to big oil company lobbyists and giving into them is one of the main reasons your government’s measures are still inadequate?
Liberal
Steven Guilbeault Liberal Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC
In a democratic society, we have an obligation to listen to all the stakeholders in these debates. I have a hard time seeing how we can separate them and say we will meet with some organizations, but not others. As I was saying earlier, we will table with the committee information about all of the consultation meetings we held within the framework of setting the greenhouse gas emissions cap. You will see that we met with a wide range of players from different sectors.
NDP
Laurel Collins NDP Victoria, BC
However, in the previous year, your government met with oil and gas lobbyists, on average, five times a day. We've seen, time and time again, that your government has then watered down policies. It was reported, or leaked to The Globe and Mail, that your finance minister was considering an excess profits tax before the last budget and then backed down in the face of lobbying by CAPP, by the big oil and gas companies.
You came to be an expert witness here at the environment committee in 2006. I imagine at that time you might have understood and might have believed that the unfettered access, the constant lobbying from the oil and gas sector, has an impact here on bureaucrats and on politicians. It's surprising to me, now that you are a minister, that you don't see that same influence happening in your government.
Liberal
Steven Guilbeault Liberal Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC
I'm saying that despite those meetings, they've been unsuccessful because they didn't want us. You've heard them. They said that it wasn't necessary and that we shouldn't have a cap on emissions, yet we're moving forward with it. Therefore, they've been unsuccessful.
Liberal