Evidence of meeting #137 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was projects.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
What I'm saying is that I don't agree with Madame Chatel's point of order. You can ask the question as many times as you want, because it may be a way to shake the tree loose a bit.
Go ahead.
Conservative
Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC
Let's be very clear, and I'm saying this to everyone.
Mr. Bilodeau, I'm not attacking you, I'm attacking the whole initiative. In the mandate letter for the net zero accelerator initiative, it says that it's aiming to reduce greenhouse gas emissions by 40% to 45%. I'm not making up a number. My question is not based on an answer that's not available, but rather on a letter of intent, a mandate letter, which states that your objective is to reduce emissions by 40% to 45%. However, you're unable to specify the reduction you will achieve through a company to which you have awarded $700 million.
Canadians recently learned that a green energy investment fund, a sustainable technology development fund, contained $500 million. Of that, $390 million—almost four out of five dollars—was not managed ethically or according to the rules. Canadians have a right to wonder why the figures aren't available.
I'd like to talk about something else, and that's Lion Electric. We're talking about $50 million here. As you know, unfortunately, Lion Electric is experiencing considerable difficulties, which no one is happy about. Earlier this week, the mayor of Saint‑Jérôme gave his opinion on the matter. He reminded us that Justin Trudeau visited the Lion plant itself three years ago to announce a program to support the purchase of buses by school transportation in Canada, but that the program never really materialized. That's $50 million, and I'm not the one saying that the program never came to be. It was the mayor of Saint‑Jérôme.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
Your time is up, Mr. Deltell.
Mr. van Koeverden, you have the floor for four minutes.
Liberal
Adam van Koeverden Liberal Milton, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to our witnesses for coming today.
For my part, thank you for protecting the integrity of these contracts from partisan games. I've never run a multi-billion-dollar company before, but I think I'd be rather reticent to provide every single detail of these contracts, given how toxic various Parliaments have become over the last couple of years.
I think it's important that they have funding agreements. I also think it's important that we get reports and timely information and that they be scrutinized. I think that's been done very, very well. I'm also glad that the integrity of that confidential information between a multi-billion-dollar organization and a nation is important to protect. It's also important for our competitiveness. We don't want companies to say in the future, “I don't want to be used for partisan reasons. I just want to do business.”
In the case of the decarbonization of the steel industry in my region, in Hamilton, we're very grateful for the improvements that this will make to our atmospheric pollution. I also know that just down the road from Milton, in St. Thomas, we're going to see huge growth in jobs thanks to the Volkswagen factory and others down in that region.
I'll say that over the last couple of weeks in particular, the leader of the Conservative Party, Pierre Poilievre, has been talking about jobs. When asked about their plans to lower emissions and fight climate change, they really only respond with one answer, and that's technology. I think immediately of technologies like decarbonizing our steel industry, improving electrification and working towards cleaner large industrial manufacturing techniques.
Could you point to job creation? I know that's not necessarily directly in your mandate, but the rust belt in Ontario has—
Conservative
Conservative
Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB
This is on the net zero accelerator. This is to reduce emissions. It has nothing to do with jobs. This study is all about where the $8 billion went and how many emissions have been reduced.
Liberal
Adam van Koeverden Liberal Milton, ON
The member opposite, Dan Mazier, might want to simplify this, make it about just one thing and suggest that the net zero accelerator fund is just an emissions reductions plan, but that's not the case. It's not solely for emissions reductions.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
Okay, Mr. van Koeverden.
To be fair, Mr. Bilodeau, in some of his answers, referenced....
I'm going to have to pause the meeting. Any time I pause the meeting, it eats into the time of the meeting.
Mr. Bilodeau did mention that one of the pillars of the program was directly tied to to job creation. Of course, the green transition is all part of the big ball of wax we call moving to a greener economy. I wouldn't spend too much time on jobs, but it's not entirely out of the frame.
Go ahead, Mr. van Koeverden.
Liberal
Adam van Koeverden Liberal Milton, ON
I know that the Conservatives would like everything to be very, very simple. I also know that they brought 360 blank pages indicating that they have done a tremendous amount of research on this.
It is about more than just lowering our emissions. It's about investing in the green economy. That's why we continually say that if you don't have a plan for the environment, then you don't have a plan for the economy.
In this context, this is absolutely true. Our manufacturing sector in southwestern Ontario is a large-emitting sector. It always has been, but as we know, we've lost a lot of jobs from the rust belt. It's where I grew up and where I live. Now this government is investing in a very competitive environment, I'd say.
The competitiveness of the Inflation Reduction Act down in the United States basically informed us that we needed to invest in order to attract these jobs and this investment in these technological opportunities.
Could you speak specifically to jobs in St. Thomas with respect to how important these investments are for the steel industry, particularly in Hamilton and Algoma?
Associate Deputy Minister, Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada, Department of Industry
I will ask Stephanie in a moment to talk specifically about St. Thomas.
On the broader picture, our estimate is on the basis of agreements to date. We estimate that about 36,000 jobs will be created and that R and D commitments exceeding $4.5 billion will be made.
It's important to recognize that we're seeing a major shift in the industrial landscape, and part of the objective is to support Canada as we shift and the economy changes. Investments like Volkswagen, though $700 million is a large investment, represent only 10% of the total investment that is being made in Canada.
While there is certainly an objective in the short term, particularly around pillar one and achieving short-term megatonne reductions, there's certainly a broader objective to the program around the restructuring of the economy and the development of the technology that will help both Canada and the world reduce GHG emissions.
Liberal
Bloc
Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Bilodeau, when I was asking Mr. DeMarco my questions, you didn't seem to fully agree with what he was saying. So I'm going to give you the opportunity to answer those questions yourself: I'm going to ask them all at once and give you the rest of my time to respond.
We have about five years left to meet the 2030 target. Do you think we're on track to reduce greenhouse gas emissions by 19 to 20 megatonnes with this $8‑billion investment?
Do you agree that the process is too long and complex for some businesses wishing to benefit from this program? If so, why do you think that is?
Why is it not attracting the large emitters, the ones that I, for one, think should be reducing their greenhouse gas emissions the most?
Associate Deputy Minister, Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada, Department of Industry
With respect to your first question, the department's estimates indicate that current investments are expected to result in a reduction of about 11.2 megatonnes in greenhouse gases. The target of 6 to 7 megatonnes is what's specifically mentioned in the contractual agreements. You have to understand that companies would be subject to penalties if they didn't meet the targets in their contract. In our conservative estimate, these contracts will have a greater impact on emissions than the 6 to 7 megatonne target specified in them. We estimate that the projects being studied will help achieve a reduction of about 20 megatonnes of greenhouse gases. There is certainly some uncertainty around these figures, because there is always uncertainty around the projects in which we invest.
As for the fact that the projects would be long and complex, you have to understand that the average investment is $200 million. The department believes that an investment like that requires due diligence and time. In addition, the Government of Canada is usually the first to invest in these projects. That means that our investments generate activity and interest in them and that there is still a lot of time left to participate.
Liberal
NDP
Laurel Collins NDP Victoria, BC
The environment commissioner laid out in his report that there was “incomplete due diligence on greenhouse gas emission reduction commitments”. He has noted his concerns here here and also in the report about value for money, given that the reduction commitments weren't strict enough and also that standard practices weren't followed.
Were there any concerns raised in the drafting of this audit or when the minister was approving projects? At any point, did people raise these concerns before the audit happened?
Associate Deputy Minister, Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada, Department of Industry
There are maybe two elements to my answer. In terms of value for money—
NDP
Laurel Collins NDP Victoria, BC
I'm sorry. Could you start with a yes or no, in terms of whether anyone raised these concerns before the audit occurred?
Associate Deputy Minister, Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada, Department of Industry
Do you mean in terms of incomplete due diligence?
NDP
Laurel Collins NDP Victoria, BC
Were there any concerns raised about incomplete due diligence on greenhouse gas emissions reductions, about value for money—given that the emission reductions were not strict enough—or double-counting or not following standard practices?
Associate Deputy Minister, Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada, Department of Industry
Value for money would not have been our own assessment in terms of—
NDP