Environment Committee on April 28th, 2022

[Kimberley Leach]

Yes.

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

If I could just add to that, it depends on when you start the clock. I would say that on the notion of just transition, perhaps the Paris Agreement of 2015 is when you'd start the clock on the fact that there would be a coal phase-out. You could start the clock in 2016 on some of these particular items; crystallized in more detail, they may differ. In this case, those arose more from the task force work of 2018.

In any event, we're in 2022, and it's time to expect some action, as opposed to just starting up on the public consultation and so on that has resumed since we started this audit work.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Mr. DeMarco, would you say that as of now, the government has failed workers in the coal industry on providing them with a just transition?

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

I would say that for those affected, to date the government has failed to adequately provide for a just transition. The coal phase-out continues, especially in Atlantic Canada, which is not as far ahead as Alberta, for example, in terms of phasing out coal as an energy source, so there's still time for those further stages of the coal phase-out and then the next rounds of transition that will come with the greening of the economy.

The idea of our report is to provide this early assessment to help improve this process going forward, as opposed to waiting until it's all over and then finding fault or finding that it worked well. That's the idea behind putting out our report at this early stage.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

If they don't make the changes—

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

We're at six minutes, Mr. Seeback. I'm sorry to interrupt you.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

I had five minutes and 50 seconds.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

I had five minutes and 56 seconds.

Anyway, if you want the four seconds to make a brief comment, go ahead.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

No. I had a question that I'm not going to get to.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Yes. That's why I figured we should stop there.

We'll go to Mr. Duguid.

[Terry Duguid, Liberal, Winnipeg South, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the commissioner and his team for their good work.

As Minister Guilbeault said when he released your report, these recommendations you've made are very helpful, and they're going to help keep the government on track in meeting our emissions target and also in accelerating the just transition, as you've highlighted in your report.

I, for one, appreciated your confirming, as did the PBO, that pollution pricing is key to meeting our targets. I wonder if you'd just make a brief comment on that, but let me segue to a process question.

My understanding of the process that follows after your report is tabled is that for those recommendations that are agreed to—and I think we heard yesterday that the majority are—departments, agencies and government entities are required to provide detailed action plans to respond to your recommendations, with specific timelines and specific actions. I wonder if you could edify the committee on that front.

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

Our hope is that there will be detailed action plans. If these reports are selected by the public accounts committee, then that will be part of the standing order to do them.

I mentioned in a previous appearance earlier this year at this committee that generally speaking, all the reports on environment and sustainable development from our office come to this committee but only some of them go to the public accounts committee. This committee, to make sure there are no gaps, could require action plans from the departments as a matter of course. If they get called to the public accounts committee, then they have those plans ready anyway. It's an element of accountability that there's a potential gap if the public accounts committee doesn't specifically select this report.

I would ask the committee to consider doing what you just mentioned, Mr. Duguid, in terms of requiring those action plans. Some of them do it voluntarily anyway and some of them do it for public accounts, but it's not mandatory.

[Terry Duguid, Liberal, Winnipeg South, MB]

Mr. Chair, I have a suspicion this is going to be a topic of discussion a little later in the meeting. It's one of the reasons I asked the question.

I hope I'm being heard all right. I have a new headset.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

You're loud and clear.

[Terry Duguid, Liberal, Winnipeg South, MB]

Good. Thank you.

Through you, Mr. Chair, we had the emissions reduction plan tabled just a few weeks ago. It's very comprehensive, at $9.1 billion. I wonder if the commissioner could situate us in terms of the time period for your most recent set of audits. Did you take into account the 2030 emissions reduction plan? When exactly did you cut things off for your consideration of the report?

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

Are you referring to the new emissions reduction plan that was tabled on March 29 under the Net-Zero Emissions Accountability Act?

[Terry Duguid, Liberal, Winnipeg South, MB]

That's correct.

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

Clearly, that was after the audit period. I think we were going to print probably by then, but we did put in, in some of the audits where it was relevant, a “Subsequent Event” on the last page, and indicated the emissions reduction plan had come out and whether that impacts things or not. We can't do instant audits, so we haven't done an audit of the emissions reduction plan.

[Terry Duguid, Liberal, Winnipeg South, MB]

Would you hazard an opinion on some of those measures that were in the ERP and might have addressed some of the recommendations you have made, or will that have to wait for the next audit?

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

I can comment on the ones that I'm aware of and that I feel I've looked at enough to provide some feedback, but it's not an audit level of assurance. It's just initial feedback.

[Terry Duguid, Liberal, Winnipeg South, MB]

Mr. Chair, how much time do I have?

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

You have about a minute and 25 seconds.

[Terry Duguid, Liberal, Winnipeg South, MB]

I'm very curious about the whole modelling issue that you raised in your report. Natural Resources Canada had a number based on their modelling. Environment and Climate Change Canada had, obviously, a different model and I think were more conservative in their estimates of the number of megatonnes that could be reduced. What would your advice be in terms of reconciling those models? I think your advice would be to be cautious. That's the spirit I got from reading your report.

What advice would you have in terms of modelling and getting it right so that we're able to track our emissions and meet those targets that you've rightly pointed out that governments going back 20 to 30 years have missed?

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

You have about 20 seconds, Commissioner.

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

There is an example in part of the report that continues to be relevant with a new emissions reduction plan and any future emissions reduction plan, because it's about the process of doing realistic modelling. From paragraph 3.51 onward, there's a lot of content about that very issue.

I would say that realism is in order in terms of modelling.