Environment Committee on May 3rd, 2022

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Thank you. I'd appreciate that.

I'm concerned that the environment department and the Department of Finance aren't using these internationally recognized and agreed-upon definitions. I'm curious why your government isn't using the WTO's and the United Nations Environment Programme's definitions, since they are well established, internationally recognized ones.

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

As you are well aware, we committed to eliminating any type of public subsidy to fossil fuel in the last election campaign, and we will be holding consultations in the not too distant future with Canadians, Canadian organizations, companies and provinces on this very topic. Obviously, we will need to agree on a common definition as this work unfolds.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

This has been going on for years. This is delayed. Your government is way behind on its peer review as part of the G20 commitment to phase out fossil fuels.

Today, 112 environmental organizations, including Environmental Defence, Climate Action Network and Équiterre, sent a letter to cabinet outlining their concerns that these commitments aren't enough, that they are not in line with our international climate goals and what's needed to keep us on track and keep the world on track to reduce temperatures by 1.5°C.

Will you at least make a binding commitment to not introduce more subsidies, and put that commitment into law?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

I would be curious to know if you know of any other G20 countries that have made a commitment to eliminate all of their public fossil fuel subsidies two years earlier than the 2025 agreed-upon G20 target—

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

I guess it's—

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

—because as far as I know, Canada's the only one.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

The thing is, if you make that commitment now but it's not in law, and you just introduced billions of new funding to fossil fuel subsidies, it's hard to believe that we're going to meet those commitments when we continue to fail again and again.

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

We haven't failed on fossil fuel subsidies. The deadline is 2025 for G20 countries, and we decided that we would do this two years earlier—

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

We are failing. We have been increasing fossil fuel subsidies year after year—

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

The time is up.

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

They've been reduced by $3 billion since 2018, and you know that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Colleagues, the time is up.

It's an interesting discussion. I like when it gets lively like that. It makes for a more stimulating meeting.

We'll go to Mr. Mazier for five minutes.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for coming out today.

Minister, last week the environment commissioner said that the carbon tax disproportionately impacts rural, remote and northern Canadians. A month earlier, the Parliamentary Budget Officer reported that most households in the Prairies will see a net loss from the carbon tax.

The carbon tax is clearly hurting Canadians. Can you promise Canadians today that your government will not raise the carbon tax above $170,000 a tonne after 2030? I want a yes-or-no answer, Minister.

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

As you are probably aware, both the environment commissioner and the Parliamentary Budget Officer have recognized that as of now, eight out of 10 households in provinces where the federal system is applied are better off with carbon pricing than without carbon pricing. Those eight out of 10 get more money in their pockets, so the—

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

The question is—

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

—richest in those four provinces don't, but both of them agreed—

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Minister, the question is whether you are planning to raise the carbon tax after the year 2030.

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

We've made a commitment all the way to 2030. We've made no commitments as to what would happen after 2030.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

I don't know why we'd believe that, because if you have made no commitments, you've promised nothing, basically.

Your claim on the additional 10% rebate for the carbon tax is that it's to cover that added financial burden for rural Canadians. How did the government decide that 10% was sufficient?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

We worked with provinces and territories when carbon pricing was first established to make a number of these determinations. If you want a more technical explanation, I would be happy to turn to Douglas Nevison, who's—

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

That's all right.

Do you know personally? Have you got to the file?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

I would be happy to provide you with a very detailed and technical answer to your question, if that's what you wish.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

You don't know how they got to that number. Okay.

APAS reported—

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

That's not what I said, Mr. Mazier. Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say that.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

APAS reported that the carbon tax will increase the cost of wheat production by $12.50 an acre. How much higher will the cost of food production have to be before you amend the environmental policies so that Canadian farmers can remain competitive?