Environment Committee on May 3rd, 2022

[Paul Halucha]

The critical minerals strategy is led out of the Department of Natural Resources, but Environment Canada participates and has an important role in the minister's portfolio, especially given the fact that the Impact Assessment Agency forms a critical part of the social licence, which I think was a key part of your question.

It is fed through the environmental assessment process, and they make the determination. There are extensive consultations on the scientific side, as you know, and with community members and first nations to essentially establish whether and under what conditions projects can go forward. I think that's a critical part of this.

[Earl Dreeshen, Conservative, Red Deer—Mountain View, AB]

That's great. I do have to split my time, but I hope that all MPs from all parties are just as open when we have to do that type of engagement around the country.

Mr. Seeback, go ahead.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

I'm really concerned about costs to Canadians with the emissions reduction plan. I know that the minister said he hadn't read the RBC report, but they outlined some of the costs of this plan.

A big part of this is the zero-emissions vehicle mandate by 2035. It's 100%. In order to do that, you're going to have to build out a charging network. With all due respect to the minister, if you're in a rural area, a plug-in hybrid will not qualify as a ZEV in 2035, so that will not be helpful.

RBC says that $25 billion per year needs to be invested, starting now, to build out the charging network. Have you calculated your different costs to build out the charging network across Canada to meet the 2035 ZEV mandate?

[Paul Halucha]

I'm looking at John, in case he has already done this. I believe the short answer is that we have not calculated out to the end point.

There are a couple of things that I would say. I think you raised the point earlier around the electrification challenges. You're right that there is going to be an increased demand in electrification. We have two issues in Canada. We need to decarbonize what we have, and then we need to expand. The investments and the costs of that are going to be very high.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

You just said you haven't done that for the charging stations, so that's—

[Paul Halucha]

On the charging stations, what the government announced was—

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

I know what the investments are. I've seen the announcements. I'm just saying that if you've calculated the total build-out costs, and it doesn't look like you have—

[Paul Halucha]

I would think that's an unknowable. That would be a very challenging number to know, given how technology is changing right now. We did this in the nineties, when we built the information highway—

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

It's an estimate. RBC came up with one. I would think that if they could do it, the Government of Canada probably could as well, if they turned their mind to it.

[Paul Halucha]

I don't want to comment on the RBC estimate. Estimates on that need to be carefully considered. I'm sure we could come up with an estimate.

There's an uptake and there's an amount of infrastructure you can build on an annual basis. The funding is sufficient at this point. To my knowledge, we haven't run out of the money needed. It's been recapitalized, just like the rebate program. There is strong support happening.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

There are six charging stations in my town, the Town of Orangeville—six. If it's a 100% ZEV mandate and there are six charging stations in Orangeville for 37,000 people, it's not going to work.

These are costs the government should be looking at and telling Canadians about, because Canadians have to factor in whether they're going to be able to afford this. That's where my question is. Have you looked at the cost of things like this?

For example, electricity is subsidized to the tune of $7.5 billion a year by the Government of Ontario. If you're doubling the generation of electricity for ZEVs, what's that going to cost the Government of Ontario? Has the Government of Canada looked at these types of costs sector by sector? You put out a plan saying how you're going to do it. Have you looked at what the cost is and who's going to pay it?

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Please answer within 10 seconds.

[Paul Halucha]

The answer is yes. We do cost analysis on all programming.

The other question you asked was whether we know the full cost of every charging station up to the last one, and the answer to that would be no, but yes, the policy analysis that supports budgetary decisions is based on costing estimates.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

I'm afraid I have to stop you. We're way over time.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Can we have those costing estimates tabled for the committee, please?

[Paul Halucha]

John, is there a costing estimate we can provide to the committee?

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

If there is, please send it in writing.

Go ahead, Ms. Thompson.

[Joanne Thompson, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I wanted to circle back to questions for Parks Canada. The minister referenced this in an earlier question.

Could someone elaborate on Parks Canada's support for the recognition and implementation of the rights of indigenous peoples?

[Ron Hallman]

Parks Canada currently works within the traditional territories, treaties, lands and ancestral homelands of approximately 300 first nation, Inuit and Métis communities. We work with indigenous partners to advance stewardship and conservation of both nature and cultural heritage in a way that reflects indigenous rights, priorities and aspirations, and that also advances the Government of Canada's commitments to reconciliation.

We're currently engaged in 37 recognition of indigenous rights and self-determination processes, working towards reaching negotiated agreements to support rights implementation. In addition, the agency participates in 29 modern treaty and comprehensive land claims negotiations in which indigenous partners have an interest in cultural heritage and lands administered by Parks Canada.

[Joanne Thompson, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you.

On the same theme, could you speak to the efforts being taken by Parks Canada to advance indigenous stewardship initiatives across the heritage places within its administration?

[Ron Hallman]

Sorry, Mr. Chair, I'm having an issue with my earpiece.

Would you mind repeating the question, Ms. Thompson?

[Joanne Thompson, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Could you elaborate more specifically on Parks Canada's efforts to advance indigenous stewardship initiatives across heritage places under its administration?

[Ron Hallman]

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, the 2020 response to the minister's round table on Parks Canada included a commitment to develop a framework to support indigenous stewardship in Parks Canada places through processes of collaboration and dialogue with indigenous peoples, in recognition of the important roles and responsibilities of indigenous peoples in protecting and conserving land, water and ice.

We have undertaken preliminary policy work to advance indigenous stewardship across Parks Canada-administered places, with an approach that will strengthen reconnections to the land, water and ice; empower indigenous voices; support indigenous leadership and self-determination; respect indigenous rights and responsibilities, as well as indigenous knowledge and knowledge systems; and build a greener and more equitable future for future generations.

[Joanne Thompson, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you.

I want to circle back to the Impact Assessment Agency. Could one of the witnesses address how the Impact Assessment Agency demonstrates to indigenous and public participants that their views are truly considered in policy development and decision-making?

[Terence Hubbard, President, Impact Assessment Agency of Canada]

One of the fundamental objectives of the new Impact Assessment Act was to support and encourage more meaningful consultations, both with the public and with indigenous peoples across Canada. We do this in a number of ways.

First off, it's through open participation, right at the beginning of our planning process, so that viewpoints received can be factored into how our process is mapped out and how communities can participate in that process throughout. We provide funding to support participation. A large part of the agency's grant and contribution programs is aimed toward building capacity and supporting meaningful consultations with indigenous communities across Canada.

More broadly, throughout our process we look to ensure that we can incorporate indigenous traditional knowledge and what we learn through communities and consultations as we look to advance ways to mitigate and minimize any potential impacts of projects as they're being developed.

It is central to our new legislative framework and it's something that we work to improve through each project that we assess.