Evidence of meeting #28 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was technology.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:25 p.m.
NDP
Laurel Collins NDP Victoria, BC
Looking to the future and the possibility of electrifying your entire fleet, what are the necessary steps to make that happen? Is there adequate funding available from the federal government?
4:25 p.m.
President, Harbour Air Ltd.
There's not at this point right now, but we have been in several discussions with the government about trying to get some funding for that. We've estimated it to be between $38 million and $40 million. As you scale up, building the aircraft is going to get cheaper. Once we have it all set and the government has agreed on the safety.... The plane has to be safer or as safe as what we're flying right now. That's the key.
We just did our first point-to-point, which was another “world's first”, a couple of weeks ago. It was interesting; the aviation museum at the Victoria airport asked if we could do something “electric plane”. We had a meeting and said, well, we have to do a point-to-point for certification, which is an 18-minute flight, so let's fly into Patricia Bay. We did that, and then we towed the plane up into the hanger of the museum. We were the star of the show. The people at our booth with the plane could not go to the bathroom it was so busy.
4:25 p.m.
NDP
Laurel Collins NDP Victoria, BC
That is very exciting to hear.
Where do you think Canada is in relation to our global peers on electrification? Is there anything we could be learning from what the Americans are doing?
4:25 p.m.
President, Harbour Air Ltd.
Yes. Again, we're behind the curve versus the Americans. I just think we need more resources from Transport, as this is a new space, or new to them, to work through these curves. I think that would be the first step—to have more resources in going down this road.
On battery technology, again, the Americans are in there too. We're hoping it will become lighter and more powerful, which we have already started to see.
I would say that we need more resources in what I will call the electrification division of Transport. We're dealing with only a few people.
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Colin Carrie Conservative Oshawa, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I want to thank the witnesses. This is an extremely exciting study. We really appreciate your input and the possibility for recommendations.
I think my first question has to be for you, Mr. Morgan. Living in Oshawa, the golden triangle, it's very exciting to hear about your company and to see your company's announcements. In Oshawa, we go back and forth to St. Catharines, where your business is located. One little accident on a bridge or a road can cause havoc, with cars idling and time constraints. I'm wondering if you could take a moment to give the committee an idea of how many cars you take off the road, how safe your service will be, and how dependable it will be in relation to weather.
I know that a lot of the technologies we're hearing about require resources from government and partnerships. I'm wondering if you could comment on whether you've received federal government funding and what you think about the red tape.
Let me leave it at that, Mr. Morgan.
4:25 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Hoverlink Ontario Inc.
The value of cars passing.... One particular pinch point would be the Skyway Bridge, which connects Burlington and Hamilton. The “Transportation Tomorrow” surveys, which are six years old, pointed at 279,000 cars moving over it in one direction. I was here a number of years ago talking about our carbon emission reduction and where we were with the biodiesel and DEF systems. It worked out that in one day we equate to 33 kilometres of cars parked bumper to bumper. Whether we go from combustion cars to electric cars, we're still going to have people backed up in gridlock. For electric cars, we know that their length of time is not where it should be. I think if you're in a combustion car, you might be on the highway longer just because you have fuel, whereas with battery you may not. That's a question to concern ourselves with whether it's combustion or electric, so I think that's a big piece.
Then you start looking at other components. If you look at something like the Ohio Valley trucking that comes through the Lewiston-Queenston Bridge, 90% of that trucking—I worked with a professor at Brock University—is destined for Ottawa and Montreal, yet it goes around the Golden Horseshoe. We need to find ways of redirecting it. They don't want to go on the toll highways through New York State to Ogdensburg—they just don't—so it's about managing that piece and, again, connecting the two biggest tourist regions in Ontario, arguably in the top three in Canada. That's a piece that we look at and understand.
If you go to an education piece—I'll step even further—the province of Ontario and the school systems averaged 179 bus trips to Toronto a week, which has stopped. The hard line used to be Stoney Creek heading to Toronto, and it used to be Oakville and Burlington heading to Niagara. Those don't happen anymore because students, parents and the education system don't want to have their kids or students in buses for four to six hours. They get a one-minute piece. I'm not here to throw anybody under the bus; that's not what I do. I want to put the energy into fixing it. The solution is not pointing fingers at it.
When it comes to government.... I was here almost six years ago. I met 67 MPs in two and a half days. I was called before Patrick Gosselin and Frank Stendardo from the bureaucratic side, policy advisers for the St. Lawrence Seaway. They grilled me on December 22 for two and a half hours. They loved it. We moved through to January 8. We were approved and moved through. It went through to the director general, Jeffrey Heynen. He said, “I love it. Let's find you buckets. We're going to put you in the NTCF.” We got an invitation to submit to the NTCF. The NTCF had five threads of payment. We were good for four of them, but we are not a port and they only paid out for a port. But I don't give up. That's a result I'm not comfortable with, and I will not give up, because this makes sense. Just as Mr. Wright is working on electric engines for his planes, and Mr. Côté on funding, we need to work on it.
A classic example of where we don't put enough thought into it would be measured around what happened at the winter Olympics, particularly the buses that they used in Whistler. They were going to use hydrogen—great—but we trucked the hydrogen in from Quebec—not great. We need to manage that end to end. We need a circular economy. We need to be ESG—environmental, social and governance—in all that we do, and end to end. We need to look at that. For example—
4:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
Unfortunately, we're out of time.
We'll go to Mr. Weiler now for five minutes.
4:30 p.m.
Liberal
Patrick Weiler Liberal West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC
Thank you, Chair.
I very much appreciate all the witnesses and the passion they're bringing to the discussion today.
I'd like to start with my first question to Mr. Côté.
You mentioned that your organization is working on renewable electricity solutions in cold weather climates. Of course, that's really fit for purpose for the environment we have here in Canada. One of the challenges we have from the federal government's point of view is that most of the electricity in Canada is distributed by provincial utilities. One area we need to focus on is electricity provision in the north, where right now we have communities relying on diesel for their fuel and for their electricity, which is both highly emitting and highly expensive.
I was hoping you could speak a little bit about the work you're doing in this area, particularly around setting up microgrids with renewable and storage, and maybe what lessons the Government of Canada can learn when we're going to be administering our off-diesel program.
4:30 p.m.
General Manager, Nergica
Thank you for your question.
Currently, close to 200,000 people in Canada use diesel to generate their electricity in off-grid systems.
I spoke about a project we're involved in with Tarquti Energy. It's an energy transition project in Inuit communities in Nunavik, in northern Quebec. We're working hard to improve the energy capacity in communities.
It's interesting to note that federal policy puts a lot of money into project hardware. However, the challenge is the lack of future projects, since communities are not well equipped to implement such projects and need support in that process. That's what we're doing in several indigenous communities in Quebec.
Colleagues at Yukon University have somewhat the same approach out west, working with communities so they can build their expertise and then take over their projects. They want to be stakeholders in the energy transition, but to do so, they need training.
Federal programs are very helpful, but they fail to address travel expenses. Whether it be bringing community representatives to our educational institutions or sending our trainers up north, the costs are significant and hinder our ability to deploy solutions. I encourage you to consider these elements.
In the last few years, Natural Resources Canada and Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs Canada have launched great programs. That's great, but it's something that deserves special consideration. It's necessary to go out into communities and engage with them if they are to properly take over projects.
4:35 p.m.
Liberal
Patrick Weiler Liberal West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC
Thank you very much, Mr. Côté.
My next question is for Mr. Wright.
It's very exciting to hear of the progress and the breakthrough technology that you've been leading on here. You mentioned that you're now at version 2.0 of your plane.
I'm wondering, with the projections you have for the development of the technology, when do you see the performance of electric air transport catching up to match the performance of fossil fuel-powered aviation?
4:35 p.m.
President, Harbour Air Ltd.
Thank you. It's an interesting question.
We're shooting for the first flight commercially, and we see that as a sightseeing flight. We do tours and whatnot in Victoria and Vancouver, and we would carry passengers on a short flight. It's only a 20-minute sightseeing flight. I think there will be a lineup on the dock to take that first flight.
How long will it take to convert? The way technology is going—every day—I'd probably say within five years. The technology is getting better and better daily, so hopefully I'm wrong on that and we can convert fairly quickly, with the rest of aviation following, getting back to what Elizabeth mentioned about short stages.
4:35 p.m.
Liberal
Patrick Weiler Liberal West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC
That's very exciting to hear.
I've had the pleasure of flying on Harbour Air. However, I'm wondering, in terms of flights that are going to require a larger load, where do you see the potential for electric flights in terms of the amount of weight they can carry, such that they may displace...? We're not just talking about float planes in Canada, but some of the larger trips of maybe one hour. When do you see being able to catch up with that level?
4:35 p.m.
Liberal
4:35 p.m.
Some hon. members
Oh, oh!
4:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
Or you can answer the question in response to someone else, if you don't mind.
4:35 p.m.
President, Harbour Air Ltd.
Again, I'd say within five years. Those are my thoughts.
4:35 p.m.
Liberal
4:35 p.m.
Bloc
Monique Pauzé Bloc Repentigny, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Côté, you talked about government coordination because it involves both levels of government.
In your opinion, is the link between research and commercialization supported enough by current federal policies?
4:35 p.m.
General Manager, Nergica
I'd say that the link could be better supported. Our Canadian technology companies have significant competency in engineering and sciences. However, they're not nearly as strong in commercialization. The move from idea to market needs to be better supported. We believe that research—
4:35 p.m.
Bloc
Monique Pauzé Bloc Repentigny, QC
I'm going to interrupt you to throw out an idea. Do you think that conferences on clean technology could fix part of the problem?
4:35 p.m.
General Manager, Nergica
Basically, we find that the challenge is so large that we need to bring all potential stakeholders together, whether it be renewable energy producers, inventors or entrepreneurs.
Some participants at today's meeting are at the forefront and are making a concrete contribution to the transition. It's really important to look at the big picture when it comes to the extraction of raw materials, the production of equipment, the production of energy, the electrification of transportation and the use of public transit. It would be good for everyone to sit down together. In Canada, we still have the reflex of working in silos.