Environment Committee on Oct. 4th, 2022

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I thank the witnesses for appearing.

Ms. Rancourt, my questions are for you. I only have four minutes, but I've many questions to ask. Let's start with biomass.

I was in Stockholm last spring. There used to be a coal-fired plant right in the middle of town; now, the whole city is heated by a biomass plant. That goes to show the sector's potential.

If Quebec's public institutions were to make a similar change, how much of a greenhouse gas reduction could we achieve? Do you have any idea?

[Emmanuelle Rancourt]

We haven't made any Canada-wide assessments. We really only work on the Quebec side and we don't really have any equivalent in the rest of Canada. I'm sure there are organizations in British Columbia that are a bit like ours and who might have a better idea.

In any case, that's an avenue we're looking at more closely. In Quebec, we're working with the Société québécoise des infrastructures, which handles all of the government of Quebec's building inventory. The organization is increasingly considering these kinds of options, especially for detention centres. As you've mentioned, there's considerable potential there. Not only are boilers being considered, but also having networks around those boilers. It's all very promising.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

It is difficult to evaluate the potential reduction in GHG emissions, but I guess that will come eventually.

[Emmanuelle Rancourt]

It is very hard to evaluate, yes, but it would definitely be relevant.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

We know that the forestry sector uses more and more waste products from tree cutting and from trees that have been damaged by insects or forest fires.

What are the benefits and the environmental risks associated with the gathering of these forestry waste products?

[Emmanuelle Rancourt]

One of the risks that is often mentioned is soil vulnerability. Normally, waste products that are left on the ground contribute to the regeneration of the ecosystem. The carbon and other elements that go back into the soil play an important role.

Finding ways to limit the quantity of waste products that is gathered according to soil vulnerability levels would be important. First, a survey of soil vulnerability levels across the territory would have to be done. Factors like angle of slope or soil porosity influence the amount of waste products that should be left on the ground. That is the sort of data that would be needed. When we make recommendations, we often tell people to take these factors into consideration. Including them in a formal framework or in official recommendations could be very relevant.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

We know that forest biomass products, as wood pellets, are used for heating in the Northwest Territories. That is an example of the potential that this type of energy has.

Given the abundance of forest resources and the technological advancements in recent years, do you think this energy could potentially be deployed throughout northern Quebec and, of course, northern Canada?

[Emmanuelle Rancourt]

Absolutely. It is one of the sectors that has the best potential. The communities we are talking about are very remote, cannot be connected to Hydro-Québec's network and rely heavily on fossil fuels like propane and equipment that is difficult to use. For these reasons, it is a very interesting option.

The only issue is that residual forest biomass has to be fairly strictly standardized to be relevant as an energy source. Northern conditions complicate things somewhat. Torrefied wood pellets help to alleviate this problem. They undergo an extra treatment to make them very stable and extremely resistant to humidity, among other things. It really helps to solve the issue.

The other difficulty is getting the forest biomass up north. It sometimes has to be shipped by boat. That is an important thing to consider. We have to make sure that the entire supply chain is set up before launching a big project in the north, otherwise it could get complicated.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

Ms. Collins, you have the floor for four minutes.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question is for Ian Thomson with Advanced Biofuels.

You spoke a little bit about the Inflation Reduction Act. It's so great to see the United States finally taking serious climate action. Also, we have this risk of lost opportunities here in Canada if our own action doesn't match the pace and scale, proportionately, of what the U.S. is doing.

You mentioned a kind of growing sense of alarm about the impacts of the IRA on competitiveness in Canada's clean fuel sector. Can you tell us a bit more about what you're hearing from your members and talk a bit more about the broader implications on the transition to low-carbon transportation in Canada?

[Ian Thomson]

We are hearing across the sectors—and this might come across as all of us crying wolf—all the way from my colleagues in the refining sector.... A number of our members are refiners that make renewable fuels, but also hydrogen and renewable natural gas and biogas. I have spoken with my colleagues in those sectors over the last week, and there is, across the board, concern that the fiscal and financial provisions in IRA are so generous and there is such a magnitude that there are really very few scenarios in which you can see a Canadian producer competing, because American producers are allowed to keep the credits that are in those programs when they export fuel, but the programs, to date so far, exclude Canadian product. We're shut out of the American market by virtue of economics, and the Americans are allowed to load up our market with exported product.

We've discussed the potential for things like trade action. We can't wait until 2026 to resolve this. There is deep concern across the board about the provisions.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Thank you.

Can you expand on the importance of clean technologies in transportation when it comes to reducing our greenhouse gas emissions and meeting Canada's climate targets?

[Ian Thomson]

I'd be happy to. Transportation is Canada's largest end-use sector, so it's the place where we get most of our GHGs. It's a tough sector to decarbonize, so these technologies are really critical.

On electrification, Brian Kingston spoke earlier to some of the wins that Canada made with the Build Back Better plan, and that was tremendous to see, but we're going to still be reliant on internal combustion engines well past the middle of the century, and I don't say that because I'm skeptical of the alternatives. I drive an electric vehicle, and it's great technology. I'm just aware that we have to have every single solution at the table.

Right now in Canada, we have a number of companies that are looking to put substantial volumes of really low-carbon liquid clean fuels into the market. A number of them are right on their final investment decisions, and when they look at the provisions in IRA, it will cause them to hit the pause button.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

It's immense stress.

The clean fuels fund is providing $1.5 billion over five years. Applications for building clean fuels production capacity closed a year ago. How is the build-out going for that fund?

[Ian Thomson]

We don't have a lot of insight into it, although I am getting feedback from some of my members that they've been waiting a long time to see contribution agreements, etc. It is generally regarded as a tough fund to access. I get that you need to have appropriate measures, but again, if you're waiting for an agreement after a year, your project can't just sit on the shelf and wait.

There's some anxiety about that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

We'll go to Mr. Mazier for three and a half minutes.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Mr. Saik, thank you for being here today.

Unfortunately, I can't think of any Canadian government that has vilified our farmers and agricultural industry more than the current government. The attack on agriculture in the name of climate change has become so senseless that we are now seeing countries like New Zealand planning to tax burps from cows.

Farmers are some of the most environmentally responsible people in our country. They use clean technology every day. No one in this government gives them credit for that.

Mr. Saik, if farmers increase their crop yields, they can sequester more carbon and, therefore, offset more greenhouse gas emissions. Would you agree?

[Robert Saik]

Absolutely. I've been working with farmers since my hair was a dark colour—it's not now—and in all of the places I've travelled to in the world, whether it was Kazakhstan or South America, I've never met a farmer who wants to spend any more money on crop inputs than they need to.

The only way to feed a planet that's passing eight billion people right away is through something called sustainable intensification. Sustainable intensification of agriculture is the way we have to go in order to reduce our environmental footprint and protect and feed the planet at the same time.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Would you agree that growing more food on the same amount of land is a sustainable practice that we should strive to achieve? Answer yes or no, please.

[Robert Saik]

Absolutely. Yes.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Would you agree that nitrogen fertilizer allows farmers to grow more crops on the same amount of land? Answer yes or no, please.

[Robert Saik]

Absolutely. Yes.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Would you consider synthetic fertilizer a clean technology?

[Robert Saik]

Yes. What are the alternatives?

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Exactly.

When this government announced that they were planning to reduce fertilizer emissions by 30%, farmers began to worry. They worried because fertilizer grows food.

Does this government's fertilizer emissions reduction plan make sense for Canada?