Environment Committee on Oct. 18th, 2022

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Can we finish the round? I'd prefer to vote in the House.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

There's no unanimous consent.

Do you want to give it until 10 minutes before?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Go ahead, Ms. Pauzé. You have five minutes.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd also like to thank the witnesses for being with us today.

I'd like to welcome all the new people to the committee. We're used to working in a collegial way on this committee.

My questions are for Prof. Pollet.

I'd like to begin by congratulating you, Prof. Pollet. I learned that you were honoured by the International Association for Hydrogen Energy last July for your work and research on innovative materials related to sustainable development.

You've even been invited to join the Council of Engineers for the Energy Transition created by the United Nations, or UN, which brings together the world's top scientists in energy efficiency. That really calls for congratulations. Thank you for your work as a professor and a pioneer in the field.

Canada has released the Hydrogen Strategy for Canada. Among other things, it's said to be ambitious, that Canada will achieve net-zero emissions and that it will put Canada at the forefront. However, 90% of the hydrogen currently produced comes from hydrocarbons. That's not how we're going to meet our targets.

Thanks to you, we realize that hydrocarbon becomes a tool of choice when it is the product of a renewable and carbon-neutral source.

How could the government help take tremendous steps forward in green hydrogen?

[Prof. Bruno G. Pollet]

As I mentioned earlier, I see the adoption of a portfolio of different technologies, such as those related to batteries, to achieve that carbon neutrality by 2050. Hydrogen isn't a magic wand that will work miracles or decarbonize all sectors.

Of course, there is also talk about blue hydrogen, which uses carbon capture and storage, or CCS, technologies. This hydrogen will be useful in sectors where electrification is very difficult. Of course, we must also include everything related to heavy transportation.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Okay.

You're telling us how it's good, but what I want to know—

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Excuse me.

Go ahead, Ms. Collins.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

It's just that the microphones are switched.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Prof. Pollet, hydrogen currently comes from hydrocarbons, which has nothing to do with the energy transition.

What can the federal government do to promote green hydrogen?

[Prof. Bruno G. Pollet]

First, financial mechanisms need to be provided to increase renewable energy production capacity in Canada. I'm thinking in particular of wind, photovoltaic and solar energy.

Next, what is most important is the production of electrolyzers. Right now, I'm not hearing much about mega-plants in Canada. We can't compare Canada to the U.S. or Europe.

You may have heard the French government announce a few weeks ago that it is building four mega-plants for the production of electrolyzers. This is very important for the French economy.

So there are two important points. Not only should we try to increase renewable energy production capacity in Canada, but we should also promote the production of these electrolyzers, which are very important in this value chain.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

That's the first time I've heard anyone address this issue.

We had an academic appear as a witness. She said that one of the major barriers to the rapid acceptance of renewable energy was the lack of support for innovation in this area. So, there were technological, economic, regulatory and administrative barriers.

In your experience, which barriers are the most persistent?

[Prof. Bruno G. Pollet]

From a technology perspective, we need to try to improve product efficiency, cost, and so on. At the moment, electrolyzers are quite expensive, but if we increase their production, their price should go down. The Chinese, for example, are putting forward electrolyzers at $200, $300 U.S. per kilowatt. Right now we're in a market where prices range from $1,000 to $3,000 U.S. per kilowatt, so there's a lot of work to be done.

In addition, Canada really needs to develop financial mechanisms to give a boost to Canadian manufacturers who want to mass-produce these electrolyzers.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

I'll now give the floor to Ms. Collins.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and welcome to the new members of our committee.

My first question is for Ms. Da Silva.

Energy workers are facing a transition away from fossil fuels, which is understandably creating a lot of anxiety. On the other hand, there are so many potential jobs in clean energy and clean technology. How do you see the federal government supporting the needed move, where we match workers and their existing skill sets with the jobs of the future?

[Luisa Da Silva]

The federal government needs to put investments into creating projects, and those projects will then create the opportunities for the jobs.

When we're speaking with people on the ground and talking to them about the opportunities, even just for transitioning, some people are becoming reticent to move over because of the looming recession. They'd rather stay with what they know than take a chance and go somewhere else. If you make it look more attractive to move towards something, I think you will see the movement of workers.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Thanks.

We absolutely need to make sure the jobs are there. The Alberta Federation of Labour is calling for urgent action to reimagine the energy economy into a clean economy and a clean-technology economy. Especially in light of the recent action of the U.S. on the Inflation Reduction Act, how might Canada be left behind if we don't act to match the scale and the urgency of this?

[Luisa Da Silva]

Yes, it goes back to what I said in my introduction, which is that for the fossil fuel workers it's just, “We follow the jobs.” That's what we've known for years. Wherever the jobs are—within Canada, in the U.S. or international—we go where the jobs are. That's what we're used to. If the U.S. goes into a boom from the renewables and clean energy, I suspect fossil fuel workers will follow the trend and move towards the jobs.

It will leave Canada behind, because right now we have a skilled workforce that can be implementing the energy transition, and that is found in the existing energy workers. They have been working on the ground and they know everything that's necessary, so we should be helping these workers to transition into the new jobs.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

You talk about the need for real projects. Do you feel the approach the government has been taking so far has been matching the scale of what we're facing?

[Luisa Da Silva]

The money needs to follow with entrepreneurs, I think, and you need to be putting the funds towards being able to create the projects within the private sector. Having the government put funds towards an upscaling program—for example, like the ESDC program—is fantastic. That's what will get it started, but there needs to be that funding to follow through for the private sector to take on the projects.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

We've heard about some interesting developments in clean technologies and the need to rapidly deploy climate solutions that are already available. We've also heard a lot of concern about the availability of workers.

One example is the greener homes grant. The government is running into the issue of not having enough energy advisers and auditors to do the required evaluations. Can you talk a bit more about the issues of workforce development?

[Luisa Da Silva]

It's a problem that's going to compound. I'm sure everybody in this room is also aware that people who work in skilled trades are going to be retiring, and there's going to be a shortage looming on the horizon.

We're going to see a compounding effect there, because often it is the skilled trades workers who work in these positions. The commentary is that there is this real urgency to get skilled workers into this industry, because otherwise we will be facing the shortages. That means we won't be able to move forward with these technologies, and we will be falling behind.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

You talked a bit about the scale of investment in CCUS. What does it say about the priorities when you see that mismatch in terms of scales of investment?

[Luisa Da Silva]

For me, what it speaks to is that the oil and gas sector has been very dominant in Canada. There is this infrastructure that's already in place, so when we're looking to find a solution that fits within the existing infrastructure, CCUS would fit, but CCUS can't be that silver bullet, so the volume of investment that has gone towards CCUS is disproportionate to the available renewable technologies that are out there that will actually make a difference. CCUS removes a lot of the carbon at production, but then the fuels are still burned, so it still produces all of the fossil fuels.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

There are some pots of money available for clean technologies.