Environment Committee on Oct. 28th, 2022

[Janet Sumner]

Yes, I think Bill C-248 allows us to move forward quickly, but also you have the consultation that happens around the park management plan. That's an ongoing process [Technical difficulty—Editor] in Rouge National Urban Park and [Technical difficulty—Editor] situation here, where it will be an ongoing process to manage that park management plan.

It also allows Parks Canada to engage in the broader ecosystem and be speaking to some of these issues that would be happening because of the increase in traffic.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

I'll go back to Ms. Sumner.

How do we increase spaces in parks like the Rouge? Can you give a quick analysis of the Rouge and Windsor, and why Windsor is a little bit different?

[Janet Sumner]

Rouge National Urban Park has been growing ever since its creation, and I'm the chair of its advisory committee, so that's how I know that it's an ongoing process. I think it shares more similarities than differences, because it too is made up of unconnected or separate parcels of land. When they brought those together, you could manage them as one park ecosystem and start to think of it that way and grow greater ecological integrity.

I'm hoping that a similar approach is taken with Windsor and that it still enshrines ecological integrity as part of the management plan and in its legislative authority.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Has that structure been really helpful when it comes to roads and other infrastructure that's there? I know the Rouge has lots of complex uses, having been there myself. Is that the way to go, having that type of a system in place?

[Janet Sumner]

Yes, I think it's a matter of the conversations.

Some of it was excised from the park. For example, Highway 401 is not actually inside the park, but just adjacent to it, and it's been excised from it. That's part of the conversation that you have in the park management plan and its creation, while other pieces—like agriculture, for example—are part of Rouge National Urban Park, where you can do things in a way that are actually moving you in a more positive direction on ecological integrity. It allows you to do all kinds of stewardship programs, as with farmers who own land there.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

There are concerns over the ecosystem right now, and the stresses of climate change, and I mentioned the intensification that's going to take place with the new transportation corridor that's coming online and climate change and other factors.

[Janet Sumner]

Yes. We call this Canada's ecological hot spot, because it is where biodiversity loss is at its peak. It's also where climate change is being felt. You have the microclimates there. The city of Windsor is routinely suffering from flooding and heat events. Preserving these areas will actually be your buffer against climate change.

What we've seen in the past with Rouge is that once you start to move forward with a national urban park, people start to find parcels of land in their couch cushions. They can start putting things forward: What about adding this? What about adding that? It actually improves and makes the ecological integrity greater.

The experience of Windsor so far seems to be proving that point. We're finding people in adjacent towns who are saying, “Hang on a second; I have a parcel of land that I think would work well here.” My expectation with the park is that there won't be just one expansion but many expansions. That's what I'm hoping for.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Does anyone from Friends of Ojibway Prairie have any opinion on that?

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

There are 15 seconds left.

[Mike Fisher]

Go ahead, Mr. Roesel.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Be brief, please.

[Bill Roesel]

Certainly there's a lot of opportunity to increase what we have down here, with lots of areas to make this park bigger and to help ensure the survival of this very rare ecosystem.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

That's perfect.

We'll go to the second round. I'll try to keep the minutes to four, four, two, two, four and four instead of five minutes. It's a 20% decrease, but I'll be flexible if you're onto something really interesting.

Go ahead, Mr. Benzen.

[Bob Benzen, Conservative, Calgary Heritage, AB]

Thank you, witnesses, for being here today. It's been an interesting discussion. It looks like everybody wants this to happen. It's just a matter of getting the right process in place.

Parks Canada today said they would have a park in place by the end of 2025. In their notes, they say it will be a bigger park. We can get Bill C-248 passed sooner, but it will be a smaller park.

I'm curious to know how all of you feel about what the trade-off is there on having a slightly longer time frame but a bigger park in the long run for the ecology, and preserving the ecology, or having a park sooner but a smaller park. What are your thoughts on that?

That's to all the witnesses.

[Mike Fisher]

I'll say on behalf of Friends of Ojibway Prairie that it's an excellent question and something that we all weigh, because we're looking at two processes and are trying to find synergies between the two to make this happen the way we all want.

We're certainly acknowledging the work Parks Canada is doing with the City of Windsor to identify those lands, and the work that is being done through Bill C-248 to make it happen and happen quickly. We're hopeful that through the amendment process there may be ways to create some sort of collaboration there so that it's not two independent processes working on these things. There might be some collaboration so that we can make this happen quickly and also maximize the footprint for the park.

[Bob Benzen, Conservative, Calgary Heritage, AB]

Are there any other comments?

[Fred Francis]

Yes. The City of Windsor supports Bill C-248 because we understand what that entails, and we believe it's more concrete. Our fear and our concern is that the City of Windsor will receive a national urban park in name and name only, and nothing much will change. You'll still have federal, municipal and provincial ownership of the separate pieces of land. With legislation, we know we don't get that. We know it will be taken on by the stewardship of Parks Canada.

That's why we're advocating Bill C-248. Our fear is that otherwise we will get a national park in the form of a media release and a media release only.

[Bob Benzen, Conservative, Calgary Heritage, AB]

Okay.

Chief Duckworth, Caldwell nation has expressed support. It's reported that you're going to be co-managing this park. I'm not sure if that's exactly true, so perhaps you could first confirm that. Will it be a first in Canada that a first nation will be co-managing a park with Parks Canada? Can you give us some background in terms of how much of an influence you will have, what the structure will be, and what your role will be in terms of that co-management of the park?

[Chief Mary Duckworth]

Yes, I can speak to that.

We're early in discussions, and we had spoken to Parks Canada about a co-management model which has been done before. I'll leave it to Janet to give you that background.

What does co-management look like? Co-management has a first nations lens which would be.... If Walpole was interested, great; we would co-manage together. What does it mean? It means walking in lockstep with the park to ensure we are taking care of everything that we committed to take care of.

What does that mean? It means the people, the water, the plants, the animals—all of that, in a comprehensive plan and manner, so that we know exactly what our duties are and what our responsibilities are to each other. Co-management to me means partnerships and working together. I'll leave it at that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

Next we have Ms. Taylor Roy.

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you to all the witnesses for being here today.

It sounds like everyone is in favour of establishing this Ojibway national park and it sounds like it will be absolutely amazing.

The major question is, how do we establish it? Do we proceed with Bill C-248, and then do due diligence and work out management plans, and so on, or do we wait and have that due diligence and some of the other work done first, and then establish it?

One of the things about Bill C-248 that concerns me is that it's adding this under the Canada National Parks Act, and in that act there are currently no urban parks. The Rouge National Urban Park has a separate act, the Rouge National Urban Park Act. I'm wondering if you have any thoughts on the flexibility or the ability to make changes and to deal with some of these issues.

There are really two things I'd like you to comment on. Since the park is going to be established by Parks Canada either way, why would we not work out the co-management plan as happened with the Rouge National Urban Park and look at some of these due diligence issues prior to.... It's almost like putting the cart before the horse. Why would we want to do it this way as opposed to the other way, when there's clearly been a commitment to establish six new urban parks, and we have the example of the Rouge National Urban Park that was established?

Perhaps you can comment on that.

Mr. Francis, I know the City of Windsor has been working with Parks Canada already on the process that was set in place by Parks Canada. Why is that not a good process? Why do you want to do it through Bill C-248, instead of following through on the process that you're working on currently?

[Fred Francis]

It's because we don't know what the process is and what it entails. We can say, “Put the cart before the horse”, but our fear is that we're going to get a cart and no horse, or a horse and no cart.

As I said, our fear, from the City of Windsor's perspective, is that it's going to be declared a national urban park via media release, and nothing really changes.

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Can I just do a quick follow-up on that?

[Fred Francis]

Sure.

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Why do you fear that, given the example of the Rouge National Urban Park that was established? Legislation was set, and all of the things that were pledged to happen did happen.