Evidence of meeting #59 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was imperial.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Gerald Antoine  Dene National Chief, Regional Chief, Assembly of First Nations, Northwest Territories, Dene Nation
Carmen Wells  Director, Lands and Regultory Management, Fort Chipewyan Métis Nation Association
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Natalie Jeanneault
Laurie Pushor  President and Chief Executive Officer, Alberta Energy Regulator
Shane Thompson  Minister, Environment and Climate Change, Government of the Northwest Territories
Erin Kelly  Deputy Minister, Environment and Climate Change, Government of the Northwest Territories
Sandy Bowman  Mayor, Regional Municipality of Wood Buffalo
Paul Thorkelsson  Chief Administrative Officer , Regional Municipality of Wood Buffalo
Megan Nichols  Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Environmental Protection Branch, Department of the Environment

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

I call this meeting to order.

Good morning, everyone. It's nice to see everyone. I hope everyone had a nice weekend. I'm sure it was busy for most of you, if not all of you.

We're at meeting number 59. Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. All the members know the procedures for intervening, whether on screen or in person, but for the benefit of the witnesses, I will say that if you are online, please keep your mike on mute until the time at which you are speaking.

If there is a need, you can use the “raise hand” function to call attention to something, such as a point you would like to make or whatever.

We have with us new members, but many are substituting for other members. Ms. McPherson is substituting for Ms. Collins.

Mr. Barsalou-Duval is replacing Ms. Pauzé.

Ms. Laila Goodridge is here—

11 a.m.

A voice

No.

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Oh! She's not here.

Mike Lake is here in person.

11 a.m.

Conservative

Greg McLean Conservative Calgary Centre, AB

I have a point of order.

Our colleague Laila Goodridge, the member for Fort McMurray, had a child this weekend, Aodhan. Mother and child are doing well.

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

That's wonderful news. We send our warmest congratulations to Ms. Goodridge. We're happy to hear that all went well and that she has a new family member. That's wonderful news. Thanks for sharing that, Mr. McLean.

Ms. May is with us again. It's a pleasure to have you here, Ms. May.

We will start with the first panel, which is a 45-minute panel. We have with us Chief Gerald Antoine, Dene national chief and regional chief, Northwest Territories, Assembly of First Nations. We also have, from the Fort Chipewyan Métis Nation, Carmen Wells, director, lands and regulatory management.

Typically it's a five-minute opening statement followed by questions. I know that the members are quite keen on asking questions and receiving the input you have to share through that and through your opening statements.

We will start with Chief Antoine, please.

Chief Antoine, the floor is yours.

11 a.m.

Chief Gerald Antoine Dene National Chief, Regional Chief, Assembly of First Nations, Northwest Territories, Dene Nation

Good morning, everyone.

Ladies and gentlemen, distinguished members of the Standing Committee on Environment and Sustainable Development, esteemed delegates, and also fellow indigenous people, our histories and cultures, our wisdom and aspirations, have played an integral role in shaping the world we live in. However, for too long our voices, the original nations of families, have been stifled and our perspective dismissed.

We're here to present the concerns and comments following the news of the arsenic and other toxic chemicals leaking from and being released from the northern Alberta tar sands sites, which flow north through our territory. There's a huge water shift, and they also flow into international waters.

Imperial Oil's Kearl mine in the tar sands allowed poisonous waste to enter our territory, contaminating the water, the aquatic life, the animals, the land and the people who live here, the original nations of families, and also the people who moved into our territory to make their homes on native land.

Imperial Oil, Suncor, and the federal and Alberta administrative governments have not engaged with the Dene or provided adequate notice or plans for remediation of the environment, lands, water, air, and wildlife. We are very concerned that the Dene were not informed about this disastrous incident and the obvious health and environmental risks associated with the leaks and spills. This is indeed an emergency.

The federal government, the Alberta government, and the Alberta energy regulator, as well as Exxon and Imperial Oil, should have informed the Dene. We found out about this disaster from Alberta first nations before the national announcements.

We agree with Elizabeth May, the Green Party member of Parliament, who stated, “This is a crime and it comes under the category of environmental racism. ... This is criminal activity.”

Our river is the second-largest river system in North America and runs through 25% of Canada's boreal forest. The Denendeh covers the Mackenzie River basin. Tailings ponds from the Alberta tar sands along the Athabasca River have been breached by industry and threaten these waters and lands.

The government, and also industry, built the tar sand mines without Dene consent. You'll notice that the location of the tar sands is close to the river. I'm sure that people who looked at the way of moving forward or looked at planning to do things took any consideration that the tar sands were really close to the river.

Alberta has produced oil for the last 60 years. Processing of the raw material used to develop oil requires approximately four barrels of fresh water to produce one barrel of oil. I don't want to talk about all these different technicalities, because this is a business you understand.

The Dene met in 1975 and talked about the ways of going forward. One of the things we talked about was the pressing issues. Just recently, just over a month ago, we had a water conference. We weren't thinking about the tailings ponds, but we wanted to think ahead. We got together with our Inuvialuit brothers and also our Métis brothers and sisters.

We gathered there to talk about our future, the land and the water. We gathered and we talked about water management. We talked about protection and ongoing concerns for our people here.

At that particular time, we found out that there were 1.3 trillion litres of oil sands tailings ponds that went into the Athabasca River. There is also the massive Site C dam expansion on the Peace River, with major downstream impacts on our traditional way of life. This serves as a stark reminder that our homes and lands must be protected at all costs. Our family and our people must be respected.

Environmental disasters such as these are an immediate and present reminder that we must constantly be vigilant in protecting mother earth, as this is our home. All levels of administrative government need to take immediate and urgent action to protect people and the environment. The working relationship must be with our families and people, and our way of life must be acknowledged.

Over the next few days, we heard from elders, leaders, doctors, advocates, experts and citizens. We welcomed their thoughts, perspectives, ideas, concerns and recommendations. We are blessed to have so much knowledge and expertise under one roof. I know that together, we will put it to really good use.

Family is like branches on a tree. We all grow in different directions, yet our roots remain the same. Let us nourish and strengthen our shared roots and come together as a family to frame steps forward to ensure that we can create a future for our children that we can all look forward to. This, of course, means protecting our homes, our water, our lands and our way of life.

In the words of a renowned young woman, the water protector Autumn Peltier, “I do what I do for the water because water is sacred.” I just wanted to share that with you.

Also, one of the things that I wanted to point out is that our elder, François Paulette, who wanted to be here, was not able to make it because of the technical challenges. He was not able to hook up.

The other thing I wanted to mention to you is that our families have been uprooted and displaced and our responsibilities have been relocated. This is the message that you heard in the reasons for the Indian residential school legacy. I wanted to share that with you, because it's one of the things that has happened because of the exploitation of our lands, territories and resources.

We also face challenges within these systems, such as being unable to address relevant agenda items at meetings, limited access that affects our ability to intervene in meaningful consultation on draft decisions and resolutions, not being able to propose agenda items and being unable to submit documents and communications relating to the work in these systems. It is evident that current opportunities and modalities of participation do not sufficiently and adequately accommodate our nation of families or empower our respective institutions.

As we move forward, it is our collective responsibility to address these inadequacies to open the doors and empower our decision-making to ensure that the voices of our nation of families are finally heard and respected and ensure that these meaningful processes are integrated into our communities' ways of life.

This is why I address you today in my capacity as a representative of the Dene nation as Dene national chief. The Dene nation enforces its mandate from the collective will of the Dene who gathered in Liidlii Kue in 1975, where they were entrusted to hold a joint assembly and to facilitate engagement to foster consultation, coordination and co-operation among the Dene family, focusing on creating a statement of rights promoting the inclusion of the Dene to ensure that the unique perspectives, knowledge and wisdom of the Dene are brought to the forefront of the decisions. The Dene Declaration was unanimously passed by the joint assembly.

This broadens participation and will lead to more comprehensive, informed and culturally sensitive policies, creating a more inclusive and sustainable world. Through our work, we aim to strengthen the partnership between the Dene and Crown representatives—Canada is included there—by fostering collaboration and mutual respect to help cultivate an environment where Dene rights and aspirations are acknowledged, supported and integrated into international policies. These partnerships will be essential in addressing such critical global challenges as climate change, biodiversity loss and sustainable development. The result will be enhanced participation in processes, enriched discourse and better implementation of the steps forward.

In acknowledging that, it also emphasizes our voices and perspective. We contribute to a more diverse and inclusive dialogue, which in turn will result in more effective and equitable solutions. As collective human beings, as our own on-the-land perspective becomes integrated into the decision-making, we will be better positioned to achieve goals that promote human rights and ensure peace and security for all.

It is vital to emphasize the importance of ongoing consultation, dialogue and collaboration among our original nation of families and the peoples of the treaty. It is essential to ensure that our voices are adequately represented and our concerns are addressed in a manner consistent with the rights and aspirations of the original nations' values. This must be inclusive, transparent and carried out from this day forth.

In closing, it is really crucial to recognize what the Dene families contribute. Our perspectives are rooted in ethics. Dene are in the business of peace, a profound concept of peace. This peace that I talk about is for the environment. This is our home. We're all human. You need to acknowledge that we are also human, and this is our home. We need to work collectively together to protect our home, which is the environment, so that future generations can have a home—a healthy home.

There are two priorities that our old people talk about. One is the land and the other is relationships, in three parts. The first relationship is with the land. That's why we've shared these documents with you and why I'm providing these opening remarks. The second relationship is the relationship with ourselves. The third one is the relationship with others. That's the reason that I'm making this presentation to you. We have a treaty relationship that needs to be acknowledged, respected and also implemented.

Marsi cho.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Thank you, Chief Antoine.

I will now give the floor to Ms. Wells. It will be for five minutes, as we need to save time for questions before we close the discussion with this panel of witnesses at 11:45 a.m.

Ms. Wells, go ahead.

11:15 a.m.

Carmen Wells Director, Lands and Regultory Management, Fort Chipewyan Métis Nation Association

Thank you to the chair and the standing committee for allowing Fort Chipewyan Métis Nation's voice to be heard today.

Unfortunately, our director, portfolio holder and avid land user Kurtis Girard is unable to attend today. He gives his regards. I will do my best to relay the statement that he wanted to make today.

My name is Carmen Wells. I am the lands and regulatory director for Fort Chipewyan Métis Nation. I am not a member, but I am a proud Métis lady.

First, I want to start with the fact that Fort Chipewyan is the oldest settlement in Alberta. Fort Chipewyan Métis Nation are aboriginal people in accordance with section 35 of the Canadian Constitution.

For centuries, the Métis Nation of Fort Chipewyan has relied on the Athabasca and Peace River systems for transportation, hunting, fishing and trapping, which are basic survival needs for the community. They rely on traditional lands and waters for medicinal, spiritual, recreational, cultural and economic purposes. As well, their indigenous knowledge and language are passed on generationally on the land.

In an economic sense, Fort Chipewyan Métis Nation have also used rivers and lakes within the traditional territory for trading, hauling wood, commercial barging and commercial fishing. These navigable waters within Fort Chipewyan Métis Nation territory include the Firebag and Muskeg Rivers. They continue to be a key transportation route that enables people to continue their commercial and traditional way of life.

Tailings water seepage and the overspill that has occurred since last May, as well as the risk of tailings ponds breaking and destroying home waters, are things that our community has expressed concern on for decades. This prediction coming true will forever change the trust and confidence on the land and Alberta's ability to regulate the oil sands.

The community has been on high alert since February, when the overspill occurred. Community members are reporting a potential loss of drinking water sources, the loss of a place to retire in, their children never being able to swim off the dock in Fort Chipewyan again, and fish forever contaminated, fish being a weekly, if not potentially biweekly, part of their diet. We have people reporting to my office—and these are all reports to my office, these concerns—that people aren't sleeping at night for fear of what news will arrive the next day.

Mr. Girard was born and raised in this river system, and for the first time in his 50 years he has a fear of getting a bucket of water from the river to cook his supper, brush his teeth or wash his face. He has worked in the oil sands for 20 years, and this fear has never arisen before. He also wanted to comment that you can never haul enough water to your traplines to sustain you for longer periods of time. If a land user spends any amount of time on the land, there is no possible way that he will not ingest water from the river and the lake.

Since the committee met last Monday, reports of overflows at Suncor have been on the news, and this is going to become a continuous threat. The generational trauma that has gone on with the cumulative loss of ancestral territory has been unmentioned, but now a glimpse of Fort Chipewyan Métis concerns with tailings-related issues has come to light. The health of the land, water and community needs support.

As other neighbouring nations brought up last week, Fort Chipewyan Métis also request an overall health assessment for the community. It is clear that the community is suffering from decades of environmental racism and generational trauma. The existing regulatory system is not designed for the protection of the community and land. As Mr. Girard wanted to convey, our connection with the land can be described as being like the Métis symbol, with one side being the land and one side being the people, with a never-ending motion.

Since 2007, the management and oversight of Imperial's Kearl mine has not addressed the concerns from the judicial review panel statement of a high risk of seepage. The solution to reducing the risk from tailings and giving the land back upon reclamation is not dilution of these polluted waters into the Athabasca River. Alberta and Canada are both pushing forward to develop regulations to allow partially treated oil sands mine process waters into our rivers, the same rivers that flow into Lake Athabasca and onward north to the Arctic Ocean, the rivers that have been and continue to be the grocery store for Fort Chipewyan Métis, their pharmacy and their way of life.

This is only one example of the poor regulatory system that is the Alberta Energy Regulator. These decades of poor regulation require a change and an overhaul so that Director Girard's nation is not at the mercy of the decisions of Alberta policy-makers who are willing to sacrifice northeastern Alberta.

Canada needs to be a larger presence in the mismanaged oil sands. More oversight—possibly co-management—is required for the oil sands. A regional effects assessment of the oil sands as well as an overall health assessment should be done to determine the cumulative effects to the community.

Fort Chipewyan Métis Nation also calls upon Canada to undertake a full audit of the many tailings ponds in our backyard. How can Canada even consider releasing oil sands mine waters into the Athabasca River without these studies being done and without knowing how they currently stand and their status?

Lastly, the implementation of the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, UNDRIP, has not resulted in its implementation in all provinces. Alberta does not recognize UNDRIP, and it is questionable if section 35 is recognized in Alberta as well.

Thank you again to the chair and the committee for having our voices heard.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Thank you, Ms. Wells.

We have a round of questions. Normally it's six minutes. I will be flexible, but if you could, aim for five minutes.

Go ahead, Mr. Kurek.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB

Thank you very much.

Let me start by thanking our witnesses.

I will note, as Mr. McLean did, that Ms. Goodridge wanted to be here, but she is obviously previously occupied. I send a big congratulations to her on the birth of her little one and I pray that she and baby continue to do well.

Just to note the local significance of this leak, we heard more today about how there are profound local implications. We also heard about that last week.

In that spirit of things, I want to ask Ms. Wells, as a representative of Mr. Girard, about the fear that existed within the communities. It's interesting to hear about Fort Chipewyan being the oldest settlement in Alberta. Can you describe a little about the uncertainty associated with what happened with the leak at Kearl? Can you describe what the experience was of residents and members of your local community?

11:25 a.m.

Director, Lands and Regultory Management, Fort Chipewyan Métis Nation Association

Carmen Wells

Thank you.

Also, give my best regards to Ms. Goodridge. I'm excited for her. Congratulations.

It has been an ongoing issue for decades. How safe the water is has always been an underlying concern with the community. The community relies on the water on a daily basis. It is their lifeline. It is where the animals they harvest come from. There has been this underlying concern for decades. This has brought it all forward and brought it fully to the front of everyone's mind now.

I hear about the concerns on a pretty regular basis. Our office is also receiving concerns. Those comments that I had put in the statement are actual comments from the community about never being able to swim in the lake again and about questioning the safety of eating the fish. Our community is a very big harvester of fish. There is winter and summer fishing for our community, and there's a big concern.

I know a community member who caught a beaver. He harvested it before we heard about all of this and he's really worried. He needs to have it tested to feel that it's safe—

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB

I don't mean to interrupt. It's a challenge here because we have so little time.

I would make an offer to both our witnesses to please feel free to send more documentation to this committee. Certainly, time is of the essence.

Ms. Wells,, we heard specifically in its testimony on Thursday about some of the actions that Imperial has been taking, but it all comes down to the idea of trust. You just referenced a lack of trust right now as to whether the water is safe.

What can be done to help restore that trust?

Processes and procedures are sometimes the dry part of what is required, but could you comment on what needs to be done to ensure that trust is built so that community members specifically can trust that their water is safe?

11:25 a.m.

Director, Lands and Regultory Management, Fort Chipewyan Métis Nation Association

Carmen Wells

It's a complicated answer, I'd have to say. It will take some time to create trust. It's not going to be a one-sided answer.

As I stated, the regulator is a pretty one-sided organization in the consultation that goes on and the projects that get approved. The JRP, the joint review panel, that was given for Imperial and the concern that was not followed through on during the application is a good example. How can a process like this be trustworthy when concerns were given from the beginning and they were not followed through? As I said, there is a generational trauma from not necessarily being told the truth for decades. That is something that will have to be repaired.

I think there will need to be some very big changes within the regulatory system. It may be something that perhaps could be completely overhauled, or perhaps there should be more of a co-management approach with Canada. Maybe the oil sands need to be more co-managed within the two governments, with more collaboration with the communities.

It is the communities' land, and it is the land that communities will end up with after everyone has left. That is the most important thing. They are staying here, and this is the land they are going to be left with, so if that trust is....

Sorry. I tend to ramble.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

That's fine.

Mr. McLeod, you have the floor.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Michael McLeod Liberal Northwest Territories, NT

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the people who presented today on this very important and serious subject.

My first question is for the Dene Nation.

The Northwest Territories has viewed all the activity that is happening in Alberta and B.C. as a high risk for contamination of our waters. We've always heard many concerns over potential leaks or potential spills. Every spring, the issue of the contamination of ducks and geese coming from the south and landing in the tailings ponds is raised.

My question is for Gerry Antoine.

You flagged that the requirements to inform the Dene, the Métis and the Government of the Northwest Territories weren't fulfilled, even though there were quite a few bodies that could have or should have done that. You talked about Imperial failing to inform the Alberta energy regulator, failing to inform the Alberta government and failing to inform anybody in the north. The federal government also didn't inform anybody. That's very concerning, but it's also very obvious that it points to the fact that the current structure of oversight is not working.

Could you comment on what the Dene nation or the people of the Northwest Territories envision as a structure that could work so that things of this nature don't happen again?

11:30 a.m.

Dene National Chief, Regional Chief, Assembly of First Nations, Northwest Territories, Dene Nation

Chief Gerald Antoine

Honourable Member McLeod, trust is one of the things that are talked about and that are going on. Processes for things such as the tar sands have never involved the Dene and Métis people. Because of the way the system has been set up, we've never been part of it, and there is no consideration of our being involved. From now on, moving forward, we need to be involved.

There are different ways to build trust. The question I have is, why are these companies allowed to investigate themselves? It's like asking the Indian residential schools abusers to investigate themselves. That is not acceptable.

Our recommendation is to initiate a complete and comprehensive independent investigation into Imperial Oil's Kearl mine site to determine the full extent and implications of the tailings pond spills and leaks.

The other thing is that these tailings ponds in the tar sands should be fully inspected and analyzed for proper maintenance, restoration and repair.

Moving forward, I see the structures—

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Michael McLeod Liberal Northwest Territories, NT

I want to get one more question in.

You started talking a bit about it, and Carmen Wells from Fort Chipewyan Métis Nation also raised it. I want to flag the issue of the audit of tailings ponds.

I would like to ask Carmen Wells if she could talk about what she meant about doing an audit of the tailing ponds. Are we talking about cumulative effects? Are we talking about going as far as doing studies on potential health risks such as cancer, since we're hearing a lot about cancer concerns as a result of the water?

Can I get a quick answer on that?

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Go ahead, Ms. Wells. You have about 45 seconds.

11:35 a.m.

Director, Lands and Regultory Management, Fort Chipewyan Métis Nation Association

Carmen Wells

Thank you. I'll keep it very short.

There are a couple of things involved.

UNESCO asked for an independent, systematic risk assessment of the tailings ponds, which should still happen. I'm looking for a comprehensive tailings ponds audit. That would be a review of their status, where they are now and whether they're following through with their approvals as they exist now. We want to know how structurally sound they are, if they will continue to be structurally sound, and if they will continue to be structurally sound for a life-of-mine closure plan. There is also the question of reclamation on the land as well.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Thank you, Ms. Wells.

Mr. Barsalou‑Duval, go ahead.

11:35 a.m.

Bloc

Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I thank the two witnesses for being here today.

The topic we are dealing with now is very important and touches me deeply. I put myself in the shoes of the people living there: every time they go fishing or fetching water from the river, they wonder if they are going to get poisoned. It's a very serious situation that has been going on for a long time.

Ms. Wells, on the one hand, you didn't get the information for quite some time. On the other hand, this information could have been provided to you by Imperial, by the Alberta government, or perhaps even by the Canadian government.

Do you feel that your community was kept in the dark or that a situation where people's health was at risk was hidden from it?

11:35 a.m.

Director, Lands and Regultory Management, Fort Chipewyan Métis Nation Association

Carmen Wells

That is a good question.

We were not informed by a simple statement on that. We were informed in early March, I believe, that there was coloured water on the landscape and that there was going to be an investigation. It was brought up, I think, in the last meeting that coloured water can be many things and that it's not necessarily a cause for concern. This is the communication which was relayed to us. We were never further updated until the environmental protection order was issued that there was actually a seepage and an overspill. There was no sense of urgency in the initial communication.

Because there was no information, there was therefore no information to follow up with the leadership. That was commented on at the previous meeting. We were kept in the dark for a good year, really. We were not made privy to what was happening behind the scenes when Alberta had known that this was an issue. I can't say for certain, because I don't have that information, but it's a wonder that a year went by without any further information about the seriousness of this incident.

11:35 a.m.

Bloc

Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC

Last Thursday, when he came before this committee, Imperial's CEO mentioned that he felt it was essentially a communication problem.

For you, Ms. Wells, is it just a communication problem that occurred, or is it a deeper problem? We're talking about facilities that have done irreparable damage to your community. Do you expect anything other than communications, for what is to come?

11:40 a.m.

Director, Lands and Regultory Management, Fort Chipewyan Métis Nation Association

Carmen Wells

I do believe it is a deeper problem than that. Industry proponents fall within the guidelines of the Alberta Energy Regulator, so they do as much as they are told to do within the regulatory system. As Chief Antoine mentioned, it's essentially industry reviewing its own plans and approving its own projects. It's a very one-sided process.

I do want to see change. There needs to be change. As I said, this whole incident went a year without any further communication. There are many people who go out onto the land on a daily basis, and this was all happening while this seepage was occurring. There should have been immediate notification so that the community could manage the situation within the community itself.

There does need to be a lot of change. It's a question about the regulator, and changes are needed there.

11:40 a.m.

Bloc

Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC

Would you say that there is an institutional bias in Canada that protects the oil industry and companies like Imperial Oil first and foremost, rather than protecting the public first?