Environment Committee on Oct. 17th, 2023

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

I can start with that and then pass it over to the department.

Exhibit 1.2, which you're referring to, as well as exhibits 3 and 4 are all called into question now because of this development of double counting other programs. Is the $3.2 billion price tag and the breakdown that you talked about for two billion trees, or is it for one-point-something billion trees, and therefore is the per-tree cost having to be addressed? We don't know any of that anymore because of this change in approach from what we were told during the audit period.

The department can help or at least attempt to explain the differences. I'll turn it over to them now.

[Monique Frison]

The estimates that you have and that were in the audit report are generally in line with what we would see for the two billion trees program. If you are planting smaller, younger seedlings in a mass area where you don't have to do a lot of preparation to the territory before you plant, then it's less expensive. If you are planting an older tree, where it costs you more to buy it because somebody has had to grow it, in a place where you have to do a lot of preparation, then it's going to cost more. That's why you see urban trees being more expensive.

You also might see some work that's more expensive because it's part of habitat restoration work. That means there's a lot more work around the planting of the tree to prepare the land, prepare the soil and prepare the area.

I hope that covers it.

[Branden Leslie, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Thank you.

I have a last question to the commissioner before I yield my remaining time to Mr. Kram.

You've mentioned several times the double counting. Why do you think the government is doubling down on this double counting plan of theirs?

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

There are a lot of “doubles” in there. I'll try not to engage in any doublespeak in responding to that.

I don't know what the motivation was, other than good news is better than bad news. We unfortunately are sometimes the bearer of bad news, but not always. Some of our reports indicate that things are going smoothly.

Whatever their motivation was, it sounds today as though these other two programs, the LCEF and the disaster program, aren't intended to contribute a large portion of the two billion trees. It's still open to them to say that they'll revert back to planting two billion incremental trees and keep it simple. That's something that's open to them to do.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Leslie.

I would like to read one quick quote from Minister Wilkinson's press release from the August 2 media event. He says:

Yearly planting numbers will fluctuate depending on a variety of factors like individual tree species' life cycles, soil conditions, extreme weather events, such as drought or wildfires, reporting timelines from program recipients and seasonal climatic variation. For these reasons, the government will be adjusting the way in which it reports on progress made under the [two billion trees] program....

What do these reasons listed—like “tree species' life cycles”—have to do with counting trees from the other two programs?

[Monique Frison]

There are about four months of the year where you can plant a tree in Canada, usually. In most places, it's only those four months. Weather conditions, the conditions of the territory where you plan to plant—one of your colleagues mentioned really dry conditions earlier—will affect whether or not you're going to. Fire seasons will affect, too, as with this past fire season, whether people are able to plant.

When it comes to looking at progress, one of the things we have to focus on, given some of the comments some members made about how much work by the nurseries goes in, getting the seeds and putting all of that and the land permissions in place, we really have to focus on multi-term, multi-year agreements with partners, where we're looking at providing them the certainty they need to set up all those relationships they need to get the right tree in the right place at the right time.

Because of that, we really need to not just look at what was planted in the last planting season. We need to look at what all those partnerships and relationships that we have in place over the long term are to ensure we get to the end objective at the end of 2031.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you very much.

Last but not least, we have Mr. Longfield.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

I'll be sharing some of my time with Madame Chatel, who has transferred into our committee recently from the finance committee. We're both concerned over getting as much as we can on the table around OSFI.

Before I get to OSFI, I also have to thank Mr. DeMarco for his work with this committee when we did the climate change accountability act—I can see Mr. Bachrach and Madame Pauzé here—and that was a lot of really tough lifting that your department helped us with. It's great to see that you're ahead of schedule on the audit coming forward, because that was a concern we all had at that time. It's going to be great to see those numbers coming to us.

When we look at OSFI—I'm going to Mr. Tardif—and the climate change risks that financial and insurance institutes are looking at.... I have the Co-operators head office in Guelph. Mutuals and co-ops across Canada are all concerned over disaster mitigation and the cost on their industry, which isn't picked up by the Parliamentary Budget Officer. Again, I just have to keep putting that in. There are a lot of external costs that we have to be managing here. How could you work with the co-ops and mutuals as part of our financial institutions in terms of helping them to mitigate or understand the risks they're taking?

[Stephane Tardif]

Mr. Chair, that's an excellent observation and an excellent question.

As you know, OSFI is responsible for the 350 or 400 institutions that are federally regulated, but we are taking a very proactive approach with our provincial counterparts. We're working with all provinces to ensure they are at the table when we're developing prudential guidance, for example.

I'm very proud to say that we are one of the only regulators in Canada that have published prudential risk management guidance. Yesterday, we published a standard on scenario analysis methodology.

Throughout all these processes, we partner with the provinces and share as much information as we can to bring them along so that there's a sort of pan-Canadian approach to regulating climate-related risks, whether you're provincially regulated or federally regulated. It's something that we're very conscientious about at the office.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Thank you.

On the pan-Canadian climate change approach, the price on pollution, if that disappeared, if somebody axed the tax, just to use a phrase, that would have a massive impact on the industries that you're working with.

[Stephane Tardif]

I'm sorry. I had really bad audio at the beginning of the question.

Is it possible to repeat the beginning of the question?

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

On the pan-Canadian climate change pollution-pricing system we have in place, if the tax was axed, as one party is asking for, that would have a massive risk impact on the rest of the industry. Would that be a fair statement?

[Stephane Tardif]

Mr. Chair, I don't think I'm well positioned to quantify the impacts of “axing the tax”, to use your term. I apologize.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

I think what you're all talking about is removing the price on carbon. No, I'm joking.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

That was a good answer.

Now I'll flip over to Madame Chatel.

Thank you.

[Sophie Chatel, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

People are talking about protecting biodiversity and species at risk on provincial and private lands, but what about public lands like Gatineau Park?

Gatineau Park, which is in my riding, is Canada's second most visited park. According to a study by the National Capital Commission, the park is home to 90 species of plants and 50 species of animals that are at risk. A legislative framework is therefore crucial so that the commission can manage and protect the species at risk.

It's a good thing to tell the provinces and the private sector how to manage their lands, but what more could the federal government do on its own lands, for example in Gatineau Park, to lead the way and ensure that biodiversity is protected?

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

Is the question for me or the representative of Parks Canada?

[Sophie Chatel, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

It's for both of you, actually.

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

For species at risk and biodiversity in general, we absolutely need a system that represents protected areas such as Gatineau Park, national parks and provincial parks. A goal has been set to conserve 30% of Canadian land and water by 2030 to expand protected areas in Canada and around the world. This is very important, because the degrading park habitat is the leading cause of biodiversity loss. Species need their habitat to survive.

There are other factors involved too, including invasive species, pollution and climate change, but protecting and restoring habitat are probably what's most important in Canada to better protect and recover species at risk.

Canada has a lot of work to do if it wants to reach this new 30% target by 2030.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Commissioner, I'd like to thank you and the witnesses representing the departments and the Parks Canada Agency. I'm very grateful to you for the wonderful discussion we've had. I know you will be tabling your fall report soon, on November 5, I believe.

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

It will be on November 7.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Okay. I want to let you know that we've already taken steps to call you to appear shortly after you table your fall report. We look forward to seeing you again.

Once again, I'd like to thank all the witnesses and members of the committee.

I bid you good afternoon.