Environment Committee on Oct. 31st, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Welcome to this meeting, which is basically a continuation of where we were last Tuesday when were questioning witnesses and then debated a motion.

First of all, I want to thank all of the witnesses for being here. Mr. Wolfish, it's really nice to see you in person. We really appreciate that you've come back for this one hour. It's such an interesting topic and there's so much to learn from all of you.

I can inform the committee that all of the sound tests have been done for the witnesses who are online, so we're essentially ready to go.

We had just started the second round—the five-minute round—when we started debating the motion. We're at the top of the five-minute round.

We'll start with Mr. Leslie for five minutes.

[Branden Leslie, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Last week, the Liberal government finally realized that the carbon tax is punishing Canadians and decided to put a pause on it for home heating for certain voters.

My question is for ECCC. Were you consulted, or was this just a political decision? Second, if you were consulted, when did that process start, and what was the advice given to—

[Adam van Koeverden, Liberal, Milton, ON]

I have a point of order, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Yes.

[Adam van Koeverden, Liberal, Milton, ON]

I question the relevance of the line of questioning.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Yes, so do I in fact. I don't think this is relevant.

[Branden Leslie, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

The carbon tax is most certainly related to—

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

It has nothing to do with waste water. I'm going to rule that out of order.

We have only an hour. We've already interrupted these witnesses once before. I'm sure there will be ample opportunity to talk about carbon pricing.

If you could get back on the topic of the water study, Mr. Leslie, I would appreciate it.

[Branden Leslie, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Sure. Let's start with a CBC news article earlier this year that stated that the federal government is still determining precisely what the Canada water agency will do. It adds that it's unknown how many employees are going to be based there.

What is the CWA actually going to do? How many staff are you going to have? What are they going to do in terms of actually leading water management?

In terms of the reports that we got from the questionnaires by various departments, there's a tremendous amount of duplication, overlap and lack of standardization. With the funding that's been allocated to CWA, is it feasible that it's actually going to provide better coordination relating to water management in this country?

[Daniel Wolfish, Acting Assistant Deputy Minister, Canada Water Agency, Department of the Environment]

Thank you for the question.

The Canada water agency's focus will be on the coordination of efforts on a number of fronts. One will be across the federal house, recognizing that there are over 20 departments that have roles and responsibilities with regard to water.

The second particular focus will be around being able to coordinate with provinces and territories with respect to the federal framework, the roles of provinces and territories in water and the need to collaborate on transboundary waters in particular.

The third area of responsibility we will be focusing on is the engagement and work with indigenous peoples, making sure that we have indigenous people..and that we integrate the indigenous rights framework into the work that we do.

With that, we hope that we are going to be able to respect the roles and responsibilities of provinces while providing leadership on federal policy for water.

[Branden Leslie, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

How do you hope to be able to do that?

In what process are you actually going to start engaging with the provinces? According to them, they weren't engaged early on in the development of the Canada water agency. At what point and how are you going to go about actually engaging with the provinces to make sure their jurisdiction is respected, particularly in light of their rightful concerns as highlighted by the Supreme Court decision on Bill C-69?

[Daniel Wolfish]

Thank you for the question.

We are conscious of the reference from the Supreme Court. We do respect it, and we will respect it. We started our consultations with the provinces and territories in 2000. We shared a paper called “Toward the Creation of a Canada Water Agency”. We held a number of bilateral calls with provinces and territories along the way. We also used the Canadian Council of Ministers of the Environment to have conversations.

We'll continue to use the CCME as a vehicle for conversations in a multilateral forum. We'll continue to use bilateral discussions, particularly as we implement the freshwater action plan and the mechanisms that we use with provinces and territories to manage the freshwater ecosystem initiatives.

We have an MOU with Manitoba. We have an agreement with Quebec. We have an agreement with Ontario. We'll continue to be working through those agreements and looking to coordinate with provinces on each of the freshwater ecosystems.

[Branden Leslie, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

What have concerns have the provinces laid out to you in those discussions? In the case of Saskatchewan, I suspect they took great issue with Environment Canada trespassing on privately owned farmland to do water sampling last summer.

What other concerns have the provinces laid out in terms of the potential or likelihood of your stepping on their jurisdiction through the Canada water agency?

[Daniel Wolfish]

We recognize that the provinces and territories have an important regulatory role to play with drinking water, with source water and with non-source water protection. We'll continue to respect those rules and responsibilities.

Our job is to work with provinces and territories, stakeholders, partners and indigenous communities around the freshwater action plan. We've identified eight transboundary watersheds across the country that require collaboration and co-ordination. We have $650 million of funding to help coordinate action in those areas, including around the Great Lakes, St. Lawrence, the Wolatoq/St. John River in New Brunswick, Lake Winnipeg basin, the Fraser and the Mackenzie.

We will continue to collaborate with the provinces on identifying priorities and putting in place measures to help with non-point source protection and improving water quality in those areas.

[Branden Leslie, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

It's been stated that legislation is coming. Is it going to be an agency or a branch under ECCC?

How many people are expected to be employed there? Are they all going to be based out of Winnipeg? When can we expect this operational aspect of the agency to actually happen?

[Daniel Wolfish]

Thank you.

The agency will be created in two steps. We've already taken action on the first step. In June, with my appointment as the acting assistant deputy minister, it became a branch within Environment and Climate Change Canada. I report directly to the deputy minister and I support the minister, as well as the parliamentary secretary to the prime minister on the work that we do within the branch.

The government has committed to tabling legislation to create the stand-alone agency. That legislation will be tabled according to the priorities of the government. When that legislation passes, we'll be able to move forward to create the stand-alone agency reporting directly to the minister.

We have started to build our presence in Winnipeg. We already had a poster out to recruit staff. We have a presence already there working on the Lake Winnipeg basin. We'll continue to build our presence there after the—

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you very much, Mr. Leslie and Mr. Wolfish.

I now give the floor to Mr. Ali.

Mr. Ali, you have five minutes, please.

[Shafqat Ali, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I'd like to thank the officials for being here today again.

My question is for ECCC.

Environment and Climate Change Canada has an equivalency agreement with Quebec for the implementation of federal wastewater regulations.

My first question in this regard is, how does the federal government ensure accountability?

[Caroline Blais, Director, Forest Products and Fisheries Act, Department of the Environment]

Thank you.

In equivalency agreements, we have two mechanisms for evaluating accountability. One is that provinces share information and data on compliance with their regulation, so we can verify the compliance with our regulation. We also have a mechanism to review the equivalency agreement periodically.

[Shafqat Ali, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Thank you.

How does the federal government ensure that the province is respecting federal wastewater standards in implementing the regulations on behalf of the federal government?

[Caroline Blais]

In the equivalency agreement, it's the same two mechanisms including the mechanism to share the data. Provinces have their accountability for complying with their regulation. They submit that data to us to look at. If an issue is raised, we can discuss with the province when we review the equivalency agreement.

[Shafqat Ali, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Thank you.

Is ECCC negotiating equivalency agreements with other provinces?

[Caroline Blais]

It is not, at this point. We have two two equivalency agreements. One is with Quebec and one is with Yukon. That's it.

[Shafqat Ali, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Thank you.

The federal government has launched a process for amending wastewater regulations, which will ostensibly improve the planning of system maintenance.

Can you update the committee on the status of the process, please?

[Cecile Siewe, Director General, Industrial Sectors and Chemicals Directorate, Department of the Environment]

I can take that question.