Environment Committee on Oct. 31st, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Mr. van Koeverden.

[Adam van Koeverden, Liberal, Milton, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I welcome the opportunity to correct some facts that were just bandied about by the members opposite for the last little while. I regret that I have to do this, but unfortunately, they are either willfully ignorant of the facts or extremely enthusiastic about misleading Canadians.

The pause on the carbon levy on a product—home heating oil—is not specific to one region. Home heating oil is the dirtiest way to heat your home. It is extremely inefficient. We used to have an oil furnace in our house and now we don't, and I can tell you with certainty that not having it is a far more efficient and less dirty way.

It's like living on a cruise ship. A cruise ship runs on a similar kind of oil. It's archaic. It's the way that we heated homes in the 1800s. We don't need to do that anymore. We have better technology and we're encouraging people to get off home heating oil.

They keep saying it's only specific to Atlantic Canada, and that's absolutely false. There are more people in the province of Quebec who use home heating oil than there are in Atlantic Canada. Quebec is a much bigger province. There is no federal carbon levy in Quebec, which is something my colleagues opposite consistently like to ignore.

Around 20% of Nova Scotians use home heating oil, so there is a low-hanging fruit opportunity to correct that and to work with our neighbours in Atlantic Canada. In order to work with them, we are giving them a bit of a break on the cost of home heating oil, which has been inflated by lots of factors, including the war in Europe. This is a good way to do that.

Some 60% of Yukoners still heat their homes with home heating oil, and these changes will reflect that. There is no added benefit for Atlantic Canadians. Any province or territory that would like to sign up for the heat pump program can, and other provinces have so far.

Heat pumps are an extraordinarily efficient way of heating one's home. We are not living in the 1800s anymore, and we ought to work on the low-hanging fruit of home heating, which includes heating oil. I am proud that this government has taken that step.

For the record, being an MP in a rural community, I'm also thrilled.... The members opposite always think it's hilarious that Milton is rural. I encourage you to come, Mr. Leslie. We might not be as rural as southern Saskatchewan, but we have lots of farms. I have lots of constituents on home heating oil, and I have been pushing for an increase to the rural top-up. It's a welcome change because, indeed, it costs a bit more. A 20% rural top-up is a welcome change for rural Canadians.

Let's get back to work.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

I have Madame Chatel.

[Sophie Chatel, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank my colleague Mr. Deltell for praising the Minister of Environment and Climate Change. I wholeheartedly agree with him that he's an excellent minister.

As chair of the liberal rural caucus, I can tell you there has been a lot of discussion. It's not always easy for Canadians living in rural areas to transition to a more environmental and ecological type of heating, or to electric vehicles. These people need a little more time and support to make the transition with the help, for example, of the oil to heat pump affordability program, which applies across country, which is important. So I think the three-year pause reflects that reality.

Of course, when provinces add their contribution to that of the federal government, that makes it easier to offer grants for transitioning to heat pumps. So I hope that all Canadian provinces will participate actively in this process so the same programs can be provided to all Canadians from sea to sea.

With that, I'd like to know whether we can now vote on the motion so we can then move on to our freshwater study.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Since you are last on the speakers list, we could proceed with the vote.

I assume we want a recorded vote.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I would prefer that we go back to hearing from our witnesses, personally.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Yes, but let's have the vote and then we can do that. That's what I would suggest. Why don't we do that? We'll have the vote and then we'll still have some time.

Mr. Kram has 30 seconds left. I'll be very strict on that. I'm sure you'll appreciate why. We'll then go to Mr. Longfield.

(Motion negatived: nays 7; yeas 4)

Mr. Kram, you have 30 seconds.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll go back to Mr. Wolfish.

Does the Canada water agency's mandate include groundwater, and specifically water drawn from wells for use on farms?

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Be very brief please.

[Daniel Wolfish]

We will not be taking over the responsibilities of others, and NRCan is currently responsible for groundwater.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Okay.

I think I am out of time, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Pretty much.

Mr. Longfield, you have five minutes.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the officials for sitting with us through that. I hope we can get back to our topic of discussion now that we've cleared that off our table.

For Mr. Wolfish, 58 formerly pristine lakes around the Kenora area were managed since 1968, and in an unexpected and controversial move, in 2012 the Conservative federal government defunded the facility. It was the Experimental Lakes Area and now it's being managed by the International Institute for Sustainable Development, and I believe they're also out of Winnipeg.

I used to canoe a lot in that area. I'm from Winnipeg originally. Knowing the importance of research on fresh water, I'm wondering how will the Canada water agency interact with IISD-ELA?

[Daniel Wolfish]

I'll start with the answer and then I will turn to my colleague to supplement the answer.

As the first step what I would say is that the experimental lakes did receive funding in budget 2023 as part of the overall investment in the freshwater action plan.

In terms of our collaborations with IISD, they're based in Winnipeg. The headquarters of the CWA will be in Winnipeg. We've had conversations around collaboration and opportunities for training and growth and connections, so that conversation will continue to happen as we proceed.

With the particulars around the experimental lakes, Arash, do you have anything to add or should we come back with a written answer?

[Dr. Arash Shahsavarani, Director, Water Quality Monitoring and Surveillance Division, Department of the Environment]

We can come back with a written answer.

[Daniel Wolfish]

We'll come back with a written answer on this one if that's possible.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Thank you. That's going to be key.

As we look at Canada, that's going to be very key for other areas to learn from as well.

Ms. Ladell, maybe to start with you—and it also relates to Ms. Blais. When I was living in Manitoba I did a lot of work on hydroelectric dams up the Churchill and Nelson rivers. Lake Winnipeg was the big reservoir for all the hydroelectric facilities, and Lake Manitoba also, taking all the water from east of the Rocky Mountains into the watershed, which ultimately fuelled our power in Manitoba through the hydroelectric dams.

There is always a lot of controversy about the lake level and how that lake level is managed with indigenous communities living on the lake, with other communities living on the lake, with southern Lake Manitoba's being flooded when Manitoba Hydro would control the level of Lake Manitoba and Lake Winnipeg.

How do we manage the hydroelectric needs of Canada at the same time as respecting the rights of indigenous people and others living on our lakes?

[Kate Ladell, Director General, Ecosystems Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans]

Thank you for that really good question.

I think there is not a simple and straightforward answer. I think it's one that involves multiple players and multiple considerations.

I will turn to my colleague for Ontario and prairie region, who has some on-the-ground experience more specific to the question you're asking.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Great. Thank you.

We have about a minute and a half and this is my last question. I know there has been a lot of history on this, but I think it would be important for our study to get some testimony.

[Hilary Oakman, Acting Regional Director, Aquatic Ecosystems, Ontario and Prairie Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans]

The issue of water levels, of course, and water control is shared between Environment and Climate Change Canada and the province. Where Fisheries and Oceans Canada has an interest is when those water levels may have an impact on fish and fish habitat. That's the extent of the Fisheries and Oceans' responsibilities, and we work closely with our colleagues in the other departments.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Great. Thank you.

Ms. Blais, do you have any more to add?

[Caroline Blais]

No. I'll look to my colleagues on water levels.

Sorry.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Okay, thank you.

I know we have a lot of experts here and I appreciate your time and your hanging in there with us.

[David Harper, Director General, Monitoring and Data Services Directorate, Department of the Environment]

That is no problem.

We actively work with the provinces and territories to monitor levels and flows across the country through a cost-share program. The data related to flows in systems where there are hydro facilities are actively monitored and shared with the public.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

The hydrological data, mapping and forecasting of what would happen if we change our power requirements is all done through that.