Evidence of meeting #84 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was information.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jerry V. DeMarco  Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General
Derek Hermanutz  Director General, Economic Analysis Directorate, Department of the Environment
Vincent Ngan  Assistant Deputy Minister, Climate Change Branch, Department of the Environment
Nick Xenos  Executive Director, Centre for Greening Government, Treasury Board Secretariat
Erin O'Brien  Assistant Deputy Minister, Fuels Sector, Department of Natural Resources
Kimberley Leach  Principal, Office of the Auditor General

11 a.m.

Conservative

Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB

Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the 84th meeting of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Environment and Sustainable Development.

Welcome to the departments that are here today and to the commissioner.

We have a pretty packed agenda today and lots of questions. I notice that you have all provided briefings, so I'll take it as the chair's prerogative to just have the commissioner do his presentation for nine minutes, and then we'll start into questions, if that's okay with everybody.

Off we go with you, Commissioner.

11 a.m.

Jerry V. DeMarco Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We're happy to appear before your committee to discuss five reports that were tabled in the House of Commons on Tuesday.

I would like to acknowledge that this hearing is taking place on the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

With me today are Kimberley Leach, James McKenzie, Susan Gomez and David Normand, who are responsible for the audits.

Three of our five reports are about reductions in greenhouse gas emissions that are urgently needed to address the global climate crisis.

Emissions in Canada are higher today than when this country and the world first committed to fighting climate change, more than 30 years ago.

Targets and plans have come and gone, and Canada has yet to deliver on any. Meanwhile, the need to reverse the trend on Canada's greenhouse gas emissions has grown only more pressing. This is not my first time sounding the alarm, and I will continue to do so until Canada turns the tide.

Our first audit focuses on the 2030 emissions reduction plan developed by Environment and Climate Change Canada under the new Canadian Net-Zero Emissions Accountability Act. While we were not required to begin reporting on the implementation of this plan until the end of 2024, given the urgent need for Canada to up its game in the fight against climate change, we decided to move more quickly.

We found that the plan was insufficient to meet Canada's target to reduce emissions by 40% to 45% below the 2005 level by 2030.

In its most recent projections, Environment and Climate Change Canada disclosed that the measures detailed in the plan would reduce emissions by only 34% below the 2005 level.

Measures needed to meet the 2030 target were delayed by departments or were not prioritized. We found a lack of reliability and transparency in economic and emission modelling, leading the government to make overly optimistic assumptions about emission reductions.

I was also concerned to find that responsibility for reducing emissions was fragmented among multiple federal entities not directly accountable to the Minister of Environment and Climate Change. This means that the minister has no authority to commit other entities to meet the target.

On the positive side, measures in the plan such as carbon pricing and regulations have the potential for deep emissions reductions if they are stringent enough and applied widely. The federal government can still reduce emissions and meet its 2030 target with drive, focus and leadership. Implementing our recommendations would be a step in the right direction.

Let's turn now to our report on departmental progress in implementing sustainable development strategies. We assessed the progress made by National Defence, Parks Canada, Fisheries and Oceans Canada and the Canada Border Services Agency in meeting the target of converting 80% of the federal fleet to zero-emission vehicles by 2030. Together, these four organizations are responsible for most of the vehicles owned by the federal government.

We found that the percentage of zero-emission vehicles across all four organizations was very low, ranging from 1% to 3% in 2022.

At this pace, only 13% of federal vehicles will be zero emissions by 2030, a far cry from the 80% target. None of the organizations had a strategic approach for how they planned to meet the target.

With a target date of 2030 and given that the government typically replaces its vehicles on a seven-year cycle, these organizations must act quickly to develop and implement realistic plans for acquiring zero-emission vehicles so that the government fleet can help reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

Also on the topic of zero-emission vehicles, our audit of the zero-emission vehicle infrastructure program found that Natural Resources Canada had contributed to expanding the charging infrastructure overall. The program is set to exceed its 2026 target of installing 33,500 charging ports. As of July 2023, 33,887 charging ports were either completed or under development.

However, we also found that in funding charging stations, the department had not prioritized underserved areas, including rural, remote and indigenous communities, and lower-income areas. The vast majority of ports were located in Ontario, Quebec and British Columbia.

While the federal government is not solely responsible for funding charging stations for zero-emission vehicles, it can do more to help bridge the gaps in infrastructure that are unlikely to be addressed by the private sector. We found that Natural Resources Canada did not collect data to help it identify these gaps, nor did it set targets for underserved areas.

There remains a large gap between the current number of charging stations and those needed by 2035. Natural Resources Canada needs to work with other levels of government and with the private sector to address gaps in charging infrastructure so that Canadians feel confident making the switch to zero-emission vehicles.

Let's turn now to our audit of monitoring commercial marine fisheries catch.

We found that Fisheries and Oceans Canada was unable to collect dependable and timely fish catch data. The department did not have a full picture of the health of Canada’s fish stocks. We also noted that the department needed to improve its oversight of the information it receives from third parties.

We found that many of the weaknesses we reported when we last audited this area seven years ago remain problematic. For example, the department created a fishery monitoring policy in response to a recommendation in our 2017 report, but we found that it had not implemented this policy nor supported it with resources or an action plan.

Seven years ago, we also flagged that Fisheries and Oceans Canada's information systems needed to be modernized to support the collection of dependable and timely data. We found that progress in this area has been very slow.

Fisheries and Oceans Canada has spent about $31 million to implement a system to provide ready access to data and integrate information across all its regions. However, we found that the department’s rollout of this new system is incomplete and that a full launch has been delayed by 10 years.

Without dependable and timely data on fish being caught, Fisheries and Oceans Canada does not know whether commercial stocks are being overfished. The collapse of the Atlantic cod population in the 1990s, with its far-reaching economic and social impacts, has shown that it is far more expensive and difficult to recover depleted stocks than it is to keep them healthy in the first place.

On Tuesday, we also released the annual report on environmental petitions. Petitions are a way for Canadians to raise their concerns relating to the environment and sustainable development and receive a response from responsible ministers.

In closing, I want to emphasize again that the window to avoid catastrophic climate change is closing fast. Intense forest fires, smoke-filled skies, heat waves, violent storms, and flooding are becoming more severe and frequent and affecting people all across Canada.

Canada is the only G7 country that has not achieved any emissions reductions since 1990. Taking meaningful action to reduce emissions is the most impactful thing Canada can do to play its part in addressing the global climate emergency.

Solutions exist, such as renewing the government’s fleet with zero-emission vehicles or implementing effective fiscal and regulatory measures to reduce greenhouse gases. The problem is that available solutions are being implemented much too slowly. That needs to change now.

Mr. Chair, this concludes my opening statement. We would be pleased to answer any questions the committee may have.

Thank you.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Dan Mazier

Thank you, Mr. DeMarco.

We'll start our first round of questioning with Mr. Deltell.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair, and congratulations on your appointment today.

Hello ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to the House of Commons.

Mr. DeMarco, it is always a pleasure to speak to you.

Mr. DeMarco, will Canada meet its 2030 targets, yes or no?

11:10 a.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General

Jerry V. DeMarco

It's possible, but the government will have to take more measures than those that are currently set out in the plan.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC

Let's talk about measures. In paragraph 6.26 of your report on the 2030 emissions reduction plan, you say that the plan does not include a target for 95% of the measures.

What is the point of making all sorts of announcements without any targets?

11:10 a.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General

Jerry V. DeMarco

That issue is addressed in report 6, as well as in report 5, which was published last spring and deals with regulating greenhouse gases. We recommend that the government be more transparent with respect to the measures and the emissions reductions associated with each measure or group of measures, if there are interactions between them.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC

If there are no targets, then it is difficult to see real results. Does that not explain why Canada is the only G7 country that has not met its targets?

11:10 a.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General

Jerry V. DeMarco

That is one of the reasons. Two years ago, we published a report in which we set out eight lessons learned from the failures of the past 30 years. What you mentioned is one of the reasons, but there are others.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC

This has been ongoing, year after year, for eight years. No targets have been met.

11:10 a.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General

Jerry V. DeMarco

As you know, since 1992, or since Canada and the world took on this major challenge, Canada is the only G7 country that has not succeeded in reducing its overall greenhouse gas emissions. This has been a problem for a long time in Canada.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC

The problem has also been ongoing for the past eight years.

In order to be transparent, we must have clear targets and know where we are headed. The government is requiring its departments to convert 80% of their fleet to electric vehicles by 2030. The report that you just submitted in that regard is scathing. In the best case scenario, only 3% the federal fleet will be zero emissions, and in the worst case scenario, only 1% will be.

How can the government convince Canadians when it cannot even convince its own departments?

11:10 a.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General

Jerry V. DeMarco

It is a matter of leadership.

It is very important for Canada to lead by example because all Canadians are part of the solution. If the federal government does not lead the way, then Canadians will question whether the government is doing its part to meet the target. It is therefore very important for the government to show leadership.

It is important not just to reduce emissions but also to show Canadians that the federal government is effectively reducing emissions in its own operations, including emissions from its vehicle fleet.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC

There has been a lack of leadership.

Some departments are saying that the reason for this situation is that the supply of electric vehicles was insufficient, that electric vehicles do not meet all of their needs or that they did not have access to charging stations. In short, these are exactly the same problems faced by ordinary Canadians who want an electric vehicle.

I will ask you again: Why does the government want to impose electric vehicle targets for 2035 when its own departments are not even capable of meeting those targets? The government set a specific target of 80% for 2030, but it has not even reached 3% yet.

11:15 a.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General

Jerry V. DeMarco

There are indeed some real obstacles.

Take, for example, the lack of charging infrastructure for departmental vehicles in rural areas. The federal government, with the help of the province and the private sector, can overcome that obstacle and facilitate the use of zero-emission vehicles in rural areas.

There is a whole interconnected system of measures that need to be managed in order for us to successfully transition to electric vehicles.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC

Let's look at a real-life example that people here are familiar with. There are four charging stations behind the Confederation Building that have been there for a long time and that work well. However, there 12 new ones that don't work. What is the point of making big announcements and having ambitious targets if we are not getting real results and the infrastructure is not reliable enough?

11:15 a.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General

Jerry V. DeMarco

We made a recommendation about that very thing. The infrastructure must be reliable to convince Canadians to transition to zero-emission vehicles.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC

How much time do I have left?

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Dan Mazier

You have 30 seconds.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC

In your opening remarks you mentioned that Fisheries and Oceans Canada created a fishery monitoring policy in response to a recommendation in your 2017 report, but that the department has not implemented that policy and is not supporting it with resources or an action plan.

Why has the department done nothing for seven years?

11:15 a.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General

Jerry V. DeMarco

The Office of the Auditor General of Canada published a report on the same subject seven years ago. I was disappointed to see that we had to make many of the same recommendations that were made at the time.

We need a lot more than just a positive response to the recommendations in our reports. We want to see progress.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Dan Mazier

I'm sorry to interrupt.

Are you good? Okay.

Go ahead, Mr. Adam van Koeverden.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Adam van Koeverden Liberal Milton, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Welcome to the chair position for the day.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Dan Mazier

Thank you.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Adam van Koeverden Liberal Milton, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. DeMarco, for appearing again at committee. Welcome back.

Thank you to all the witnesses and experts. Our panel is well attended today, and we appreciate the opportunity to ask some good questions.

Mr. DeMarco, you focused a lot on ambition in your report. I appreciate that. I'm a strong believer in our needing to be more ambitious with respect to achieving our climate targets and our decarbonization. I'm also a strong believer in carbon pricing and the impact it can have as a market-based instrument in reducing our emissions. It is a topic of conversation in the House of Commons and the media quite frequently. It seems as though the conversation we're having in the House of Commons isn't so much about how we fight climate change as it is about whether we fight climate change.

I agree with much of your report, and I appreciate it. In broad strokes, I feel as though I can take this away from it: All the necessary architecture is in place to continue our action on fighting climate change and increasing our emissions reduction plan—to lower our emissions even more—but we need to move faster. We need to set larger, higher and more ambitious targets.

Would you agree with this characterization, and could you also point to the importance and value of a market-based instrument like carbon pricing and its contribution to those emissions reduction targets?