Environment Committee on Nov. 28th, 2023

[Laurie Pushor]

No. Temporary fencing was installed very quickly. Again, I don't have the specific date in front of me, but it was in the February-March period for the most part, and then the permanent fencing was installed as we got into the summer.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

Mr. Kram.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Pushor, when you testified before the committee in April, you were not here by yourself. You were here with representatives from Environment and Climate Change Canada.

Since then, you've come back with the list of things to do from Deloitte. You have 27 items to work on, which you said you'll be busy with for most of next year. I was wondering if you feel that there is any room for improvement on the role of Environment and Climate Change Canada. Would it be useful for the committee to hear from them as well?

[Laurie Pushor]

Well, I guess one thing that is a bit unique in this instance is that Environment and Climate Change Canada has advised us that they are conducting an investigation. Typically, they are pretty clear with us on what wildlife, what waterfowl, what fish they've found, or the evidence that says there was an impact on a river. We haven't received that information, and so we're unclear what it is they are investigating at this time.

We'll continue to be in touch with them. We've been sharing our information quite transparently with them, and we'll continue that until we understand more fully the nature of their investigation.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Okay.

Now when it comes to the actual sites where the leaks occurred, can you walk us through what the Alberta Energy Regulator has done on these sites or what you have done to make sure that Imperial Oil made changes on these sites? What tangible examples do you have of work that has actually been done?

[Laurie Pushor]

The most important starting place was to get a clear understanding of what was happening and why the interception system wasn't stopping the seepage from moving beyond it. They identified four sites where that was occurring. In each site, we compelled them to put together a unique engineering approach or strategy as the best way to enhance that interception system to ensure it was collecting the seepage. That has involved extensive trench work, and a lot of interception wells have been drilled and put in place, and we've seen some installation of French drains.

In addition to that, as we became concerned in the spring with some of the tests we were seeing at waterbody 3, they put in an extensive shallow vacuum system, right around the edge of waterbody 3, so that they could intercept closer to the surface water, which was thought to be where that waterbody might have been impacted by it.

Those systems are all operational now. The monitoring, as I've said, shows stable or declining test volumes in the area beyond that interception system, and we continue to ask Imperial to do that monitoring but to then also expand it beyond that.

From time to time, this part of the world does freeze up, and it does make it more challenging to do some testing, but we'll continue to ensure that's done. Of course, we'll do everything we can to ensure that as breakup occurs next spring we are highly in place and highly informed to keep an eye on what's happening in terms of Imperial's actions and the operations of these systems to make sure Imperial is on the job, making the enhancements work the way they need to and doing anything else that might be required if anything untoward is identified.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

From the perspective of the Alberta Energy Regulator, could you give us a bit of a before and after picture in terms of the changes that have been made and how you respond operationally when you first hear that a leak has occurred? Are there alarm bells that go off in your office? How does the Alberta Energy Regulator respond?

[Laurie Pushor]

We have long-established protocols. Deloitte has some suggestions to enhance them, but we have long-established protocols.

We have staff on call seven days a week, 24 hours a day. The EDGE notification system is staffed 24 hours a day. When a call comes in through the EDGE system, it's triaged by the EDGE operators. The notifications we receive then go to our on-call person.

The on-call person will then evaluate what they're dealing with and, more often than not—it's one of the wonders of the great team we have here at the AER—they get in a truck and go out and have a first-hand look at the earliest possibility to see what's going on at the site and make sure the response is appropriate.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Your time is basically up. Thank you.

Mrs. Chatel, you have the floor.

[Sophie Chatel, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

Thank you very much, Chair.

I’ve worked with multinationals my entire career. It’s clear to me that their primary objective is to maximize shareholders’ assets and generate ever-increasing profits. There’s no hiding from it, it’s part of their constitution, their mandate and their board of directors’ mandate.

In that sense, we must also understand that it’s not necessarily profitable for an oil, gas or mining company to prevent the release of chemicals, prevent spills, protect flora and fauna, or even to remediate post-mining land degradation, reduce pollution, manage solid and liquid waste or prevent environmental contamination.

I say this because it’s important to understand that those roles fall to governments and regulators. There’s no hiding from that either. It’s a partnership, and it’s important to understand that. It’s your role to protect Canadians and their environment. There’s nothing to be embarrassed about.

Mr. Pushor, let me tell you what worries me. In October, professors at the University of Calgary called for a public review of Alberta’s energy regulator, because they described it as too secretive and too close to industry. That worries me.

I would like you to explain how you intend to evolve in order to fully assume your role, your independence and your duty of transparency, and to assert yourself in this very important mission of protecting Canadians and their environment.

[Laurie Pushor]

If I could have some indulgence to provide some information requested earlier, the permanent wildlife fencing was completed May 15, 2023.

Relative to the comments you were just making, we as a regulator are committed to the highest level of transparency we can provide. Unfortunately, a lot of our information is quite technical in nature, so a big part of the work we're doing today is to try and understand how people want to consume information and then make sure that it's accessible easily through our website.

I would note that when you talk about the University of Calgary professors, most of the information they are talking about was obtained through publicly available sources from the AER, so we're doing our best to get all of the information out there and make sure that people have clear access to it. Good public discourse around matters of importance is always helpful. We welcome a conversation about what should or shouldn't be happening in our space at any time.

[Sophie Chatel, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

These professors say you’re too close to industry. Obviously, you need to work together, we understand that. However, do you find that your mandate, which is to protect Canadians, their health and the environment, is being compromised?

[Laurie Pushor]

No, I don't. We have rigorous conflict of interest standards and protocols in our organization. We have clear expectations.

I would also reflect that there are 1,000 Albertans who come to work every day at the Alberta Energy Regulator with a genuine passion and commitment for the work we do to ensure that the industry operates at the high standards the government expects them to. I'm humbled to work with that group. They are diligent, committed and dedicated to fulfilling that mission.

I would also note that they are dedicated and committed to openness, learning, growing and ensuring that we get better every day.

I'm confident in the work of the Alberta Energy Regulator. I can tell you that we have lots of dialogue with industry, and they understand the expectations.

I would also challenge your opening suggestion that industry will not meet those high standards unless someone compels them to. I think the operators in the oil sands, the Pathways Alliance, are committed to meeting Albertans' and Canadians' expectations, and they're committed to doing the best they can to be the most responsible—

[Sophie Chatel, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

Please allow me to interrupt, as this is exactly the kind of comment that worries me. The main thrust of any company’s articles of incorporation is profit maximization. You can’t be too naive. Of course, these companies have plenty of good will with regard to established standards and regulations. However, they are accountable to the board of directors and shareholders. We have to understand that. It’s a partnership. I’m not saying they won’t respect our regulations, but we shouldn’t be naive either.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Yes, indeed.

We will now begin the fourth and final round of questions.

Mrs. Goodridge, you have the floor.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Thank you.

I want to thank you again for taking time to be here today, Mr. Pushor, to clarify some of this information. Through these questions we've seen a lot of what I would like to characterize as misrepresentation of what this industry is and isn't. I would attribute some of that from my colleagues, to the fact that they have probably never seen what the oil sands look like. They don't know what the reclamation looks like. They have no idea what a tailings pond looks like. They're going from photos.

Once again I am going to open it up. If any single person sitting around that table has an interest in actually understanding a little bit better what this industry is and how much it contributes to the Canadian economy, Alberta's economy, and about the hard-working people who make their living in this industry and provide the economic opportunities so that Canada can succeed, please, reach out to my office. We will help plan a trip for you. We will make sure you get to see what you are looking for so that you actually understand what exactly these tailings ponds are, what the dams actually look like, because it is hard to express and understand the scope and the magnitude of this sitting in your ivory tower in Ottawa. That's with all due respect, as someone who was born and raised here and has three generations who have worked in the oil sands.

It is absolutely incumbent on people that they actually understand what this industry is and what it means to Albertans. I don't think that has been shown in many of the questions that have been asked.

I do think, Mr. Pushor, there is one important piece I would like, if possible, for you to really clarify. I pointed out that you guys failed to communicate with the elected provincial members and federal members of Parliament who represent this area. I don't like to assume, but I would assume that if I've been able to identify two players that you have not communicated with, then there are others. I would ask you to do a more serious review to make sure you are capturing all the people who need to be communicated with in the case of an emergency.

Can you commit to doing that?

[Laurie Pushor]

Yes, we will, for sure. I look forward to your advice and guidance in terms of any thoughts you have on where we should go looking for all of those people.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

I would also welcome you, if you're ever in the Fort McMurray region, to give me a call. It would be lovely for me to be able to show you my hometown, because contrary to what many people think, Fort McMurray is not just a boom town. Fort McMurray is my hometown, and I'm very proud of it. I do not want people on the benches on the other side—the Liberals, the NDP and the Bloc—to continue throwing bombs at the major industry that provides support to my community. I think the failure of communication opened up lots of doors. Frankly, that's unacceptable, so I would hope that you guys are going to continue to do more.

I would just ask, in your final thoughts here today, if you have anything that you have learned that you will be doing better with AER going forward.

[Laurie Pushor]

For sure, certainly expectations evolve and change over time.

The historic protocols were always that industry should be the group that's the responsible party doing the principal communications, but we certainly have come to understand that communities want to hear from us in our role as the regulator, as we do our best to ensure there is compliance across the entire sector.

We will, without hesitation, sit down with anyone and have conversations and hear their views and do our best to be transparent. We will give information to people so that they can not only hear from us that things are as they are, but they can also see the information and data that causes us to believe that, and form their own opinions.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

With all of that being said, do you think that Environment and Climate Change Canada should have been here today as well? Are there other people from government we need to hear from other than just you as the regulator?

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Be quick, please.

[Laurie Pushor]

We've been transparent in sharing all the information with their officials. If the committee wanted to hear from Environment and Climate Change Canada, it may help the committee to hear first-hand from them on their thoughts on the matter.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you very much.

Before I go to Mr. Weiler, I should mention that in 2007, I spearheaded a study at environment committee on the oil sands and their impact on the Athabasca River watershed. I did travel to Fort McMurray with the committee and went up in a helicopter to fly over the oil sands with the member for Papineau.

It is really something to see and the committee will be putting in a request to travel to Fort McMurray and to Kearl, hopefully in the spring, and up to Fort Chipewyan, as well.

We'll go to Mr. Weiler, please, for five minutes.

[Patrick Weiler, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I was disappointed that the committee travel request wasn't approved last time so that we could go visit some of the sites that we're talking about today.

I have to say, I find it deeply disturbing that the members from the Conservative Party are just framing this as a communications issue. We're talking about millions of litres, in this case, of toxic tailings that are spilling into the environment.

Mr. Pushor, earlier on in my line of questioning, you mentioned that all the companies had submitted an audit of their tailings facilities. Could you confirm that all these containment systems are, in fact, working, or are there any leaks that you're seeing?

[Laurie Pushor]

As I said, we continue to review and follow up with companies in that regard. To date, I'm advised that all of the tailings pond systems seem to be working as intended.