Environment Committee on Nov. 28th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Yes, we're adjourning at 1:30 by my phone here, not by that clock because it's a little fast.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I just wanted to clarify.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

At 1:30, we're done.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

We agreed to go to a vote, but I'm sure the honourable member is almost finished.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Our resources will have been depleted and will come to a stop.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Thank you.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

What I am trying to say, Mr. Chair, is that it is very important for the federal government to focus on federal issues and not provincial ones. I was saying, quite rightly, that the government has the bad habit of encroaching into areas of jurisdiction that are not theirs, especially as regards the environment.

Let me remind you that, with Bill C‑69, the federal government gave itself the power to decide, without consulting anyone and especially not the provinces, to conduct environmental assessments of major hydroelectric projects. Yet this is essentially a provincial matter, unless a dam were built on the St. Lawrence Seaway, which is under federal jurisdiction, but that is not likely to happen. It has been this way for a hundred years and it works very well, as we know.

So the government has given itself the power to redo what Quebec already does with respect to the environment. The environmental assessments conducted by the office of environmental public hearings are quite serious and thorough. They are conducted by scientists who reach a conclusion. The federal government, on the other hand, under the leadership of the Prime Minister, who has been in office for eight years now, thinks that the people in Ottawa are smarter than those in Quebec and will conduct a better assessment. That is not true. It simply duplicates and delays the process.

We all have the same objective of reducing pollution and greenhouse gas emissions, living in a greener environment and reducing our carbon footprint as much as and for as long as possible. That means new technologies, renewable forms of energy and, for those with the potential, hydroelectric power.

The federal government has given itself a mandate by interfering in things that are not its concern, but it was called out by the Supreme Court. Furthermore, a week or two ago, the Federal Court invalidated the government order prohibiting single-use plastics. So two courts have overturned a federal government decision. The government is not pleased and will appeal. That is its right, its privilege, and it is using it. The fact remains, however, that two courts, namely, the Supreme Court and the Federal Court, have told the government that the environment is a matter of shared jurisdiction and that it has to properly identify what is federal and what is provincial. Unfortunately, the government had not done that.

It is never too late to do so, though. As we know, the Alberta government has suggested certain measures relating to Alberta's sovereignty. Yesterday, the Minister of Environment and Climate Change said that was fine and he was not getting involved. It is never too late to do the right thing. After two warning shots from the courts, the Minister of the Environment and Climate Change finally looked at the Constitution, realized that the Alberta government was in fact right, and decided to drop it.

If people are not happy, they will send that message in the next elections. If my friends on the government side are not happy with what is happening in Alberta, let them to go the polls, and I wish them good luck. This is the fourth time I am offering my Liberal colleagues the opportunity to go to the polls in Alberta. Moreover, I understand there will not be many candidates, so they can go ahead if they like.

I want to get back to something that is very important. If by any chance Hydro Quebec does something that bears scrutiny or that does not have unanimous support, will we, at the federal level, grill the people from Hydro Quebec here for a tense fifteen minutes? I don't think so. There are other bodies that already exist for that purpose. In Quebec, that place is Quebec's National Assembly. The other provinces have legislative assemblies, except perhaps for Newfoundland and Labrador, where there is also a national assembly, as I recall. If I'm a bit off on constitutional law, I apologize. I am saying that just in case.

From my point of view—perhaps I am mistaken but I don't think so—, the motion proposed by my government colleagues is an intrusion into...

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Just a moment, Mr. Deltell. Someone else has a point of order.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Mr. Chair, my watch loses time. Could we get a time check on where we are?

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

It's 1:26.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

We have four more minutes.

Thank you.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Mr. Chair, if I was offended easily, I would be a bit more upset that one of my colleagues are asking the chair what time it is. You would think he is keen for me to stop talking, but I hope not because I have a lot to say about areas of jurisdiction and the need to respect them.

I will nonetheless try to wrap things up and get straight to my point about how the motion is drafted, especially its conclusion. We can debate aspects of the premise of the motion, but four out of five of the Liberals' specific requests pertain to a provincial body under Alberta's jurisdiction. One might support it or oppose it, one might judge the actions of this regulatory body harshly or be lenient; everyone is entitled to their opinion. I think we have all done our work well, both the government members and the opposition party members. I also commend the participation of the member for Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, who was the first one affected by the events at the Kearl mine—

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Mr. Chair....

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

I'm sorry, but there is a point of order.

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Is there such a thing as a point of clarification? I'm trying to understand something Mr. Deltell is saying.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

A point of clarification.... Can you just interject and ask for clarification? It's not a point of order. It's a point of clarification.

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

I want to be clear on something, because of the premise of what he's saying.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

I'll be flexible, but keep it brief.

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

It'll be short.

Thank you.

Can you tell me whether environmental issues fall under exclusive provincial jurisdiction or whether they are under the shared jurisdiction of both orders of government?

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

A point of order.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you very much, Ms. Taylor Roy. I also appreciate the fact that you asked your question in French.

Mr. Chair, I know I jumped in, but I would like to answer that right away.

Yes, in fact, Ms. Taylor Roy is right. The environment is not under the exclusive jurisdiction of one order of government. It is under shared jurisdiction, which is why it is important to look after the watershed, which has nothing to do with the biblical parting of the waters. We have to recognize that some things fall under provincial jurisdiction, while others are under federal jurisdiction.

In the specific case of Mr. van Koeverden's motion, the matter is under direct provincial jurisdiction. At the end of the motion, there are five requests. Let us set aside the last one, which concludes by saying that this should be part of our work. The four others pertain exclusively to Alberta's energy regulator, which is mentioned very directly and specifically.

We're talking about Alberta. We're not talking about Canada. We're not talking about federal jurisdiction. We're not talking about the House of Commons. We're not talking about the federal committee of environment and climate change issues. We're talking about Alberta.

Guys, if you want to run in Alberta, good luck, but this is the House of Commons of Canada.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Mr. Chair....

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

There's a point of order.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Mr. Chair, I move to suspend the meeting.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

There is a motion to suspend.