Environment Committee on March 24th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Good morning everyone, whether you are in the room or joining us remotely.

This morning, we have the great honour of welcoming the Minister of Environment, the Hon. Steven Guilbeault.

I think this is the first time you have appeared before the committee, Minister. We hope you will come to see us often to update us on the policies you will be applying.

I think that everyone here, both members of Parliament and officials, is familiar with how these hybrid meetings work, so I won't take too much time to repeat the instructions. Briefly, if you are moving around the room, you must wear your mask and maintain physical distancing. For those taking part virtually, please put your mic on mute while you are waiting to speak.

For the information of people following our meeting, I would note that today we are considering the 2021-22 supplementary estimates (C). We have a lot of speakers, in addition to the Minister, so unfortunately I won't be able to take the time to introduce everyone. We do know them very well and we very much appreciate their joining us.

Before I turn the floor over to the Minister, do you want to say something, Ms. Pauzé?

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

I would just like to remind everyone to take their mask off when they are speaking, because it makes the interpreters' work much easier.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Yes, please take your mask off before speaking, because otherwise, as Ms. Pauzé has said, it is very difficult for the interpreters to understand clearly what you are saying.

You have the floor, Minister.

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Minister of Environment and Climate Change]

Thank you for the kind introduction, Mr. Chair. It will be my pleasure to come as often as possible.

Thank you for inviting me to appear today.

I am joined by a number of officials from the Department of Environment and Climate Change. Christine Hogan is deputy minister, and Paul Halucha is associate deputy minister. Linda Drainville is assistant deputy minister, corporate services and finance branch.

Terence Hubbard is president of the Impact Assessment Agency of Canada.

From Parks Canada, Andrew Campbell is senior vice-president of operations, and Catherine Blanchard is CFO.

I would like to recognize that we are meeting on the traditional territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

As you said, Mr. Chair, this is my first meeting with you as Minister of the Environment and Climate Change. I have been looking forward to having this conversation with all of you on the amounts requested for Environment and Climate Change Canada, the Parks Canada Agency and the Impact Assessment Agency of Canada in the 2021-22 supplementary estimates (C). As many of you know, the supplementary estimates (C) is the last opportunity for departments and agencies to adjust their 2021-22 main estimates.

Like you, I view the responsibilities under my portfolio as amongst the most critical. We understand that the health and well-being of Canadians depends on a healthy environment and economy. Ambitious commitments have never been more timely and more critical than now.

For this reason, my mandate commits me to ensuring delivery of Canada's strengthened climate plan; implementing the Canadian Net-Zero Emissions Accountability Act; bringing forward an emissions reduction plan to achieve our 2030 targets by reducing emissions to 40% to 45% below 2005 levels; and further accelerating climate action to achieve net-zero emissions by 2050 and limit the increase in global average temperatures to 1.5°C.

Since 2016, the Government has committed more than $100 billion to climate action and environmental protection, including $60 billion under the Pan-Canadian Framework on Clean Growth and Climate Change, the Investing in Canada Plan and more; $15 billion under the Strengthened Climate Plan; $15 billion under Budget 2021; and $20 billion via other initiatives, like the Covid-19 Economic Response Plan, permanent transit funding and more.

We’re not just mitigating emissions. We are working towards a whole of society approach to adapt to the impacts of climate change.

We are also protecting and conserving the natural habitats essential to biodiversity. The goal is to conserve one quarter of Canada's lands and inland waters and one quarter of Canada's oceans by 2025 and to raise that to 30 per cent by 2030.

My department is also working hard to address pollution, ensure that our water remains clean and healthy and continue to provide reliable weather forecasts. The agencies in my portfolio are also conducting impact assessments and helping to ensure Canadians have access to nature and historic sites.

All of this work, and more, is foundational to creating the conditions to ensure a more resilient, equitable and prosperous Canada.

In addition, it is supported by the 2021-22 supplementary estimates (C) that are before us today.

For Environment and Climate Change Canada, the department’s submission amounts to a net increase of $48.6 million. This would bring the department's total authorities to $2 billion.

The major funding request includes $9.8 million to reduce greenhouse gas emissions from the transportation and waste sectors. This funding will go toward strengthening and implementing greenhouse gas emissions regulations and zero-emission requirements. It will also help us to develop, implement and enforce federal landfill methane regulations, as well as additional steps to support food diversion and energy recovery from biodegradable waste.

There is a request for $7.3 million to help return proceeds from the output-based pricing system to the originating jurisdictions, as required by the Greenhouse Gas Pollution Pricing Act. These funds would go toward operating a program to reduce industrial greenhouse gas emissions and support clean electricity projects.

A portion of this request would support co-development work with indigenous recipients to return a portion of proceeds from the regulatory charge on fossil fuels, known as the fuel charge, in jurisdictions where the federal backstop approach is in effect, namely Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba and Ontario. These funds will provide long-term, flexible support for indigenous-led climate initiatives.

There is also $7.9 million to establish the Canada water agency transition office. I know you have heard of the Canada water agency. It will work with provinces and territories, indigenous communities, local authorities, scientists and other stakeholders to find the best ways to ensure that our water remains clean, healthy and well managed. The transition office will define the scope of the Canada water agency, prepare the agency and ensure its establishment.

As members know, no nation can achieve the much needed transition to a low-carbon, climate-resilient and nature-friendly economy on its own. We all need to be engaged. The request for $6.5 million to implement Canada's International Climate Finance Program aims to help developing countries achieve this transition.

I am sure all members are also well aware of the record breaking heatwaves and flooding out west this year. There is just over $3.2 million to support wildfire and flood resilience. These funds would help produce floodplain data and maps for communities across Canada most at risk of flooding. They would also support flood prevention, mitigation and response, and planning activities.

Mr. Chair, you may have heard of the climate lens. It aims to help integrate climate, economic and social considerations into government decision-making. These estimates include $1.9 million to establish and operate a climate lens centre of expertise and help a core group of departments pilot and implement the climate lens.

These are some of the highlights of the supplementary estimates (C) for Environment and Climate Change Canada. There are also several transfers in and out of the department, as well as reallocations and grants, which members can ask about today.

Let’s now turn to the Parks Canada Agency.

Through the 2021-22 supplementary estimates (C), the Agency is seeking to increase its reference levels by $14.8 million. This includes $7.5 million to help strengthen operational capacity to prevent and respond to wildfires in Parks Canada administered protected areas, such as protecting the safety of visitors, built facilities, and natural and cultural assets.

Parks Canada is advancing reconciliation with indigenous peoples in many ways.

There is $2.1 million to increase resources and capacity for the wrecks of HMS Erebus and HMS Terror national historic site. This is a tremendous opportunity for Parks Canada and Inuit to work together on one of the largest, most complex archaeological initiatives in Canada's history.

There is also $1.5 million to support a more proactive and timely approach to indigenous negotiations to implement rights, while reducing litigation risks, building partnerships and advancing mutual priorities.

There is a request for a grant of up to $1.75 million to the Yellowknives Dene First Nation to fulfill the agency's commitment to establish the Thaidene Nene National Park Reserve. There's also $400,000 to advance reconciliation with the Innu of Labrador and pursue the work of an impacts and benefits agreement for the co-operative management of the Akami-Uapishkᵁ-KakKasuak-Mealy Mountains National Park Reserve. Another $250,000 will enable the ratification of an Inuit impacts and benefits agreement with the Kitikmeot Inuit Association for national historic sites in the Nunavut settlement area, including the wrecks of HMS Erebus and HMS Terror national historic site.

In addition, there is a request for $1 million to promote the visitation to and protection of Parks Canada-administered heritage places and support safe and sustainable tourism recovery. There is also a request for transfers with other government departments that total about $400,000.

I would now like to turn to the Impact Assessment Agency of Canada.

The Agency is responsible for conducting impact assessments under the Impact Assessment Act, which came into force in August 2019. The Agency reviews major projects in Canada for sustainability by considering environmental, economic, social, and health impacts of proposed projects over the long term.

The Agency is also responsible for ongoing assessments initiated under the former Canadian Environmental Assessment Act, which came into force in 2012.

If approved, the 2021-22 supplementary estimates (C) will raise the agency's total approved spending from almost $82 million to about $82.8 million. This includes a $1-million transfer from Environment and Climate Change Canada, largely to support the agency’s work to administer funding for the regional information and monitoring network, part of the Ottawa River watershed initiative led by Environment and Climate Change Canada and the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission. It also includes a transfer of $155,000 to the Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council to contribute to grants that will ultimately support the new impact assessment system.

Before I end, I want to emphasize that I value your commitment and contribution to ensuring the health and well-being of our environment and economy and of all Canadians.

I am looking forward to working with you.

I am happy to take your questions now.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you, Minister.

Before starting the rounds of questions, I would like to note that Lena Metlege Diab and Elizabeth May are with us this morning.

To begin the first round of questions, I will turn the floor over to Mr. Seeback for six minutes.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, in your opening statement, you talked about $60 billion under the pan-Canadian framework to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. In 2016—you talked about 2016—greenhouse gas emissions in Canada were 707 megatonnes, and in 2019, they're 730 megatonnes. This is from Environment and Climate Change Canada's website.

If it takes $60 billion to increase greenhouse gas emissions by 23 megatonnes, how much is it going to cost to get us to the 45% reduction that you're talking about in your plan?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Thank you for the question.

I would invite you to take a second look at the 2019 inventories. If you look at the projections to 2030, when we came into power, those projections showed that we would increase greenhouse gas emissions by 12%. Now, the same projection shows that we are in the process of reducing those emissions by 30 million tonnes, which is equivalent roughly to Quebec as a whole. That's 80 million tonnes per year.

We are changing the course of climate change emissions in Canada. As I said in my presentation, next week I will be tabling the emissions reduction report. That will give you, in great detail, everything we've done so far, how much our emissions have been reduced, where the projections are to 2030 and what we need to do to achieve our 2030 targets.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

I understand what projections are. What I'm dealing with is the hard facts. For $60 billion, greenhouse gas emissions went up by 23 megatonnes. This is based on your department's published figures, in and of itself.

You're saying not to worry about that, because the extra money you'll spend is going to get us there—sort of a “don't worry, be happy”.

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

No, that's not what I'm saying.

What I'm saying is that we have started to deploy the plan, which is composed of regulations, legislation and investments, as you point out. Those—

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

You deployed the plan in 2016.

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

If I may, Mr. Chair, I want to answer the question.

Those investments are not fully deployed. We have started some programs, and some are in the process of being finalized. The money started going out the door, but the $60 billion has not been fully invested yet.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Do you agree or disagree that from 2016 to 2019 greenhouse gas emissions, under your government, have gone up by 23 megatonnes?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

I agree with what's in the 2019 inventory, absolutely. We will have more good news for you in the coming weeks on Canada's inventory.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Under vote 1c, it's funding for carbon pollution pricing proceeds return. Have you or your department done an analysis on the disproportionate impacts of the carbon tax on people in rural communities? We talk about the average. I asked you a question in the House of Commons yesterday about a senior in my riding who says she keeps her heat so low she feels like she's freezing. With the cost of propane and the carbon tax, she can't make ends meet.

Has your department looked at the disproportionate impacts of carbon pricing on rural Canadians?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

As you know, according to the Parliamentary Budget Officer, eight out of 10 households are better off with carbon pricing. It's true that the richest amongst us in Canada do not benefit from the rebates, but eight out of 10 households are better off with the implementation of the carbon pricing system—

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

I've heard the number eight out of 10, but have you looked at rural communities? Rural communities don't have energy alternatives. They heat their homes with propane. They have to drive and commute often long distances to get to work, which means they're using gasoline.

Have you looked at the disproportionate impacts on rural Canadians? I can tell you that people in my riding talk about it all the time.

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

You know that there's a 10% addition to the system for rural households. There is clearly a rural lens that is applied to carbon pricing. Specifically, whether the department has done an analysis, I could perhaps ask the department—

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

I'll ask them in the second hour.

If it hasn't been done, will you commit today to have the department look at the impacts of the backstop on rural communities?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

You're asking me a question, but you're not allowing me to provide you with the answer.

If you want, we can ask the department if it has been done. Then you will have the answer, and we won't have to go into hypotheticals.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Sure.

[Christine Hogan, Deputy Minister, Department of the Environment]

We can follow up in the second hour, if that's okay.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Okay.

Then I'm going to ask you, if it hasn't been done, will you commit to doing that?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

If it hasn't been done, we will make sure that it's done.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

When we look at funding to renew and advance clean technology-enabling measures, also under vote 1c.... You've issued green bonds, but you've excluded nuclear and LNG from green bonds. We know that even the former governor of the Bank of Canada has said that there's no path to net zero without nuclear. Converting a steel plant in Ontario from coal to LNG, which is taking place right now, will save three megatonnes per year.

Why were these two things excluded from green bonds?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

As you know, it's our first issuance of sovereign bonds in Canada. We worked with TD securities and HSBC. They made recommendations in terms of best practices for sovereign bonds in countries similar to ours. I can think of France and the European Union, which also include fossil fuels and nuclear energy. Since it's the first time we were doing it, we wanted to go with the best practices internationally, and that's what we did.