Evidence of meeting #94 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was federal.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5 p.m.
Vice-President, Regulatory Affairs, Policy and Corporate Events, Canadian Nuclear Association
Again, I'm not part of that project. I can't comment on the process that they went through. I'm sorry.
5 p.m.
Conservative
Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC
All right.
Mr. Chair, from our side, we don't see a problem with the development of nuclear energy. It's not the only solution, but it's one of the solutions we have to consider. I don't want to get into the debate going on in the province of Quebec: this week, the provincial parliamentary committees discussed the possibility of... I think we have to see nuclear power as part of the solution, but not as the only solution; when it comes to decarbonizing our energy, there's no magic wand.
Ms. Baker, do you feel that small molecular reactors are something that should be considered when evaluating the possibility of developing nuclear power? Are there other interesting ways of doing this?
5 p.m.
Vice-President, Regulatory Affairs, Policy and Corporate Events, Canadian Nuclear Association
I'm sorry. I'm not sure that I quite understand the translation of the question.
I would say that I completely agree, and the Canadian Nuclear Association has always been asserting, that nuclear is a part of many solutions that are out there. We've never said that we are “the” solution. We definitely recognize that.
The climate crisis is one of the biggest issues facing the globe, and we are in full support of all clean technologies that need to be put forward to address that issue, of which SMRs could very much be potentially part of that solution. SMRs have the capability, from what I understand about the various technologies, to contribute to electricity, both on grid and off grid, but they're also a potential solution we're looking into—that the sector is looking into—for helping to decarbonize the very difficult parts of the economy, such as industries that rely currently on fossil fuels, and to potentially be a solution to that component of the Canadian economy that's very difficult to decarbonize.
I would ask Sorouche, my colleague, if he wants to also answer that.
5:05 p.m.
Sorouche Mirmiran Director, Regulatory Affairs, Canadian Nuclear Association
Thank you, Mr. Chair and parliamentarians.
Small modular reactors can produce high heat. Right now the industry relies on fossil fuels and so on. Small modular reactors or advanced reactors can produce high temperatures that can be used for industrial applications. That's one of the uses they can have, as well as producing electricity for remote sites, where right now, again, we rely on fossil fuels.
There are a number of applications that are very different from those of large water reactors. Large water reactors are very beneficial as well, but again, they have different applications.
To answer your question, yes, they do have applications for decarbonizing.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC
Thank you very much.
I would now like to ask a question of Ms. Maezo, whom I welcome to our committee.
Ms. Maezo, when we talk about agriculture and your region, particularly the Montreal region, we can't overlook one of the greatest disasters Canada has ever seen, the expropriation of Mirabel farmers.
That said, earlier you mentioned that the federal government should have a better measure to protect agricultural territories.
Can you explain how the federal government can intervene in a sector that is first and foremost—as we've clearly seen, in Quebec—a provincial jurisdiction?
5:05 p.m.
Agri-Environmental Consultant, Fédération de l’UPA Outaouais-Laurentides
I'll give you an example: the City of Mirabel's project to build a traffic circle. However, as it may encroach on federal territory, this complicates the situation and the city hasn't even tried to go any further. From what I understand, nothing is being done on this land. It's an example of land that belongs to the federal government, but has no particular vocation. Land in an agricultural zone could be used for something else if it's not being used for agriculture.
To be honest, I don't know enough about the powers you have in this area. However, in our opinion, it's really important that the federal government do something to help...
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
Sophie Chatel Liberal Pontiac, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Baker, I know you're not an expert on the Chalk River issue. However, I would like to talk to you about a concern expressed by citizens during the consultations. In 2015, the Conservative government of the day delegated nuclear waste management to the private sector. Yet nuclear waste management is more a question of ethics and morality, which is the responsibility of the government.
Do you think we could overturn this decision and move forward to ensure the complete management of radioactive waste by the government or by one of the government agencies?
5:05 p.m.
Vice-President, Regulatory Affairs, Policy and Corporate Events, Canadian Nuclear Association
Thank you for the question.
I'm going to ask my colleague Sorouche if he can address that one, because I don't have the history of that waste management decision. I'm not sure Sorouche does either, because he was in Europe at that time, but I'll ask him.
5:05 p.m.
Director, Regulatory Affairs, Canadian Nuclear Association
Hello.
Thank you for your question.
I can't say whether waste management should be in the private or public sector, as it depends on the outlook. For example, pharmacies and companies in the aviation field are mostly managed by the private sector, even though different departments are responsible for the safety aspect. The same applies to nuclear waste. Some countries have private mechanisms, others have public mechanisms and others have mixed mechanisms, i.e., private and public.
From the moment a competent regulator ensures that disposal sites are safe, it's more a question of transparency and monitoring the site over time. So it's purely a question of how these mechanisms are put in place.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
Sophie Chatel Liberal Pontiac, QC
Thank you very much.
Ms. Maezo, welcome to our committee. I've been impatiently looking forward to your testimony. You raised the fact that several levels of government are involved in water management and that this creates extraordinary challenges for farmers, who must interact with several levels of government and comply with different regulations.
Do you have any solutions to propose?
The Canada Water Agency has just been created, and its main mandate is to ensure better collaboration between the provinces, territories and indigenous peoples when it comes to water management.
5:10 p.m.
Agri-Environmental Consultant, Fédération de l’UPA Outaouais-Laurentides
If there were a follow-up, it would help us a lot.
When you apply for a permit, you sometimes have to deal with the municipal and provincial levels. This agency would have to be able to put it all together and process applications on a priority basis. Some of our producers have applied for water-taking permits, to create new ponds, but they've been waiting for an answer for two years. There are always new forms to fill in and new things to add. We should set up an expressway and find solutions more easily.
Often, several regulations are a hindrance to the implementation of certain solutions; there is sometimes inconsistency between different regulations.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
Sophie Chatel Liberal Pontiac, QC
Thank you very much.
In your brief, you talked about the success of certain programs, including ALUS, which stands for Alternative Land Use Services, in the Outaouais region.
Could you briefly explain what ALUS does?
5:10 p.m.
Agri-Environmental Consultant, Fédération de l’UPA Outaouais-Laurentides
I'm the coordinator of the ALUS program. We visit producers. We're not environmental inspectors, which makes it a little less scary for the growers who receive us on their land. We suggest different solutions depending on their needs, whether it's installing riparian buffer strips or windbreaks. We also do a lot of prairie reserves, that is to say pastures and hayfields. These are very rich environments for biodiversity and very important for water and climate change. These soils are very rich. We explain the value of all this to producers, and we give financial compensation to producers who implement measures to protect these ecosystems.
So we cultivate nature. We implement green infrastructure projects that improve biodiversity and water quality. We do this on a farm-by-farm and project-by-project basis, depending on the partnership or service needs of individual growers. We ask ourselves whether a grower's reluctance stems from a question of money, a lack of knowledge or a lack of time. We then find the right partners to help them. Sometimes we do projects on our own. Other times, we do projects with local partners.
Our goal is to offer a service tailored to each person, one at a time, in the most local way possible. In fact, ALUS communities are developed locally, one community at a time.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
5:10 p.m.
Bloc
Monique Pauzé Bloc Repentigny, QC
Thank you very much.
I thank all the witnesses for being here.
Ms. Maezo, we know that agriculture and climate change are directly linked to water. California, for example, will no longer be able to supply North America with fruit and vegetables. Water availability is very likely to become an issue.
Are there not major water issues that the federal government is not properly addressing?
5:10 p.m.
Agri-Environmental Consultant, Fédération de l’UPA Outaouais-Laurentides
As far as I know, the federal government doesn't deal with the water issue in Quebec at all, or almost not at all. Water bodies are managed by the province...
5:10 p.m.
Bloc
Monique Pauzé Bloc Repentigny, QC
I apologize for interrupting.
With regard to water availability, I think we need to talk about infrastructure. That's where the federal government has a role to play.
5:10 p.m.
Agri-Environmental Consultant, Fédération de l’UPA Outaouais-Laurentides
Of course, ideally the federal government could help producers install irrigation basins; it could better manage the coherence between municipal and agricultural water supplies.
In Laval, some producers are simply connected to the city's aqueduct network. The federal government could play a coordinating role in infrastructure to ensure that water system planning takes into account producers' access to water, or that infrastructure is planned so as not to affect groundwater quality.
This would be particularly necessary in the case of mines or other projects that take place on agricultural land. There are also a host of laws that could protect adjacent producers' access to groundwater.
5:15 p.m.
Bloc
Monique Pauzé Bloc Repentigny, QC
Thank you.
Since I have six minutes and I want to ask questions of three witnesses, I'll stop there.
Mr. Pomeroy, we recently learned that Canadian oil companies have been covering up the disastrous environmental impact of the tar sands industry.
As professor emeritus, could you inform the committee of the direct environmental effects of oil sands development in Canada, particularly for fresh water?
5:15 p.m.
Distinguished Professor and Canada Research Chair, University of Saskatchewan, As an Individual
Of course, the oil sands are on the Athabasca River, which flows north to form the Slave River and the Great Slave Lake, and then to the Mackenzie River to the Arctic Ocean. The aquatic impacts are in that region.
The aquatic sampling program has been extensive in there. The one concern, of course, is the storage of water from the oil sands extraction process. The treatment of these ponds has been left to something in the future. It's crucial to ensure that they don't leak. Generally they don't leak, but sometimes they leak a bit. That's a great concern aquatically.
The other is the restoration of these lands. This is something that the Global Water Futures Programme did research on, working out how best to regrow the forest and reproduce the wetlands, including under drought conditions. We need deeper soils to do this. There's been tremendous expertise developed in how to restore the oil sands land to something more approximating a natural state.
The other concern you mentioned was the emissions in the atmosphere. Through airplane sampling, they picked up things that could not be picked up by existing sampling schemes on the ground. The sampling schemes need to improve for the atmosphere.
For the aquatic system, it's simpler because it's focused on the river. If we keep an eye on the river, which is being done very well, I think that can be contained, but it's crucial that a plan be developed to deal with the liquid waste from the oil sands over time, and not leave it for another half century.
5:15 p.m.
Bloc
Monique Pauzé Bloc Repentigny, QC
I see in the policies that they want to increase production in the oil sands. The problems involving rivers, waste and water storage will therefore be far from solved.
February 1st, 2024 / 5:15 p.m.
Distinguished Professor and Canada Research Chair, University of Saskatchewan, As an Individual
In terms of policy, this should be part of the integrated river basin management for the Mackenzie River basin. There are vast natural ecosystems downstream, and indigenous populations in a relatively lower political power jurisdiction. The Northwest Territories is not a province.
The stance of many of the indigenous people is zero tolerance for contamination of their waters. That has to be assured through transboundary agreements and through a strong Mackenzie River Basin Board that has the authority to ensure that environmental conditions downstream are being met all the time.
5:15 p.m.
Bloc
Monique Pauzé Bloc Repentigny, QC
Thank you.
My next questions will be for Ms. Baker.
The new Impact Assessment Act allows most nuclear projects to avoid the act, which is deplorable, given that tritium, for example, is increasingly abundant in water. The Ottawa River is contaminated by industry. Much of Canada's radioactive waste will be sent to the Chalk River landfill. Nuclear power plants on the shores of the Great Lakes also contribute to the pollution of drinking water. So there are serious risks for the population.
You mentioned earlier that you're concerned about fresh water. What do you intend to do to assess and manage this accumulation of radioactive waste in waterways?
