Evidence of meeting #49 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was building.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Mari  Managing Principal, Aryze Developments
Burns  Interim Chief Operating Officer, EfficiencyOne
Kabbara  Chief Executive Officer, The Transition Accelerator
Hunter  Scientist, As an Individual
Larmer  Senior Director, Policy, Government Relations & Communications, Canadian Gas Association
Finet  Analyst, Regroupement des organismes environnementaux en énergie

4:40 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, The Transition Accelerator

Moe Kabbara

I was indicating that relative to where we were before, I would agree that we need to do more. There's always more that can be done.

If we look specifically at the measures we took off the table, the greener homes program ran out of money suddenly and we brought in $2 billion for heat pumps. To me, that's an improvement. In the previous government, money ran out. It was completely boom and bust. Contractors and homeowners were left waiting.

Is bringing back a program an improvement? Hopefully. We're here today to talk about how to make it more predictable, because we heard about the importance of predictability and stability. I don't think we have to fatalistically fall into the boom-and-bust cycle. To me, that is an incremental improvement.

I think that's how we can secure more retrofits. The previous program was $5,000, so $10,000 unlocks a significant incremental cost for lower-than-median incomes. It's income-tested. To me, that is an improvement, because those are the people who are going to need that money, and it moves it beyond oil heating, even though oil is a slam dunk, in my view.

We could talk a lot about that, but that is just one data point. Let's compare where we were a year ago, with a busted greener homes program that ran out of money suddenly and left people waiting, versus something we just put into place today.

Bruce Fanjoy Liberal Carleton, ON

Thank you.

Mr. Burns, we talked briefly about energy poverty. Last week, Senator Mary Coyle introduced a bill to establish a national strategy to end energy poverty. I'm proud to sponsor that bill in the House of Commons.

In Nova Scotia, as heat pumps have gained more traction, have you noticed greater acceptance that this is, in fact, reliable technology that will improve people's comfort and affordability?

4:45 p.m.

Interim Chief Operating Officer, EfficiencyOne

Robert Burns

Absolutely. The demand for our programming to change people over from primarily oil heating to heat pumps is exceptionally high. There's widespread recognition in Nova Scotia that heat pumps offer a more energy-efficient and cost-effective heating source.

Bruce Fanjoy Liberal Carleton, ON

Thank you.

I'll defer to my colleague.

Eric St-Pierre Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

Thank you, Mr. Kabbara, for the phenomenal work you do with The Transition Accelerator. It's a very valuable analysis.

Today, the Prime Minister was in Estrie, Quebec, making a historic announcement of $2 billion for energy efficiency. Over the long term, this is going to save Canadians about a billion dollars a year. This is very significant. It's going to improve the comfort of a lot of homeowners. It's going to be addressed to a lot of low-income households as well. It's going to reduce about 25 megatonnes of greenhouse gas emissions.

Is this announcement significant, or would you consider it to be insignificant?

4:45 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, The Transition Accelerator

Moe Kabbara

A portion of the electricity strategy was doubling the grid, but another pillar was electrifying end uses.

I appreciate the comment about being realistic. If you look at the announcement, it's talking about oil, propane and baseboard heaters. It's not really talking about Canadians heating with natural gas. There's a reason for that. I think the government has recognized that we should go and hunt where the ducks are. If you want actual savings, you go where the savings really are.

That is the significance of this announcement and unlocking the lower-than-median-income household. This means that we have to make sure that it's properly ramped down, because we've seen what happens with the unpredictability of previous programs.

Eric St-Pierre Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

Perfect.

In 10 seconds, could you comment more on the MURBs aspect of today's announcement and the financing to CMHC?

4:45 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, The Transition Accelerator

Moe Kabbara

I think being able to restructure money that has already been allocated and move it to, I would say, constructively achieve this goal with multi-unit residential buildings, with both the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation and CIB, is a good thing. Specifically, they have different needs and different ways of operating with programs than homeowners.

The Chair Liberal Shannon Miedema

Thank you so much to all of our witnesses for their time today.

Mr. Leslie, go ahead

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Branden Leslie Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

Thank you.

Because of that last question, I think it would be relevant and related to the matter at hand of this study.

I'm curious if I could move the following motion: “That, in the context of its study of Retrofits for Home Energy Efficiency, the committee invite Julie Dabrusin, Minister of Environment, Climate Change and Nature, and officials, to appear before the committee for at least one hour to give testimony.”

The Chair Liberal Shannon Miedema

Mr. Leslie, are you putting something on notice right now?

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Branden Leslie Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

Given that it's the matter at hand, I don't actually need to put it on notice. I can move it right now. This one's not on notice. I am moving this motion, that the minister come—

The Chair Liberal Shannon Miedema

You're moving this now.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Branden Leslie Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

Given that we have talked about this announcement that was made today—the member just brought it—and we've had witnesses answer it and it is in the context of this study, I would move that the minister and officials appear before this committee within the meetings allocated for this study.

The Chair Liberal Shannon Miedema

Thank you, Mr. Leslie.

Before we continue, I think we'll just excuse the witnesses. Their time is precious.

Thank you so much for joining us today and for your expertise. We really appreciate it.

Mr. Bonin, you have the floor.

Patrick Bonin Bloc Repentigny, QC

I support my colleague's proposal. We've heard a lot about today's announcement. The government seems very proud of it. There are some good things in there; it's a step forward. However, I think this is a great opportunity to have this important, multi-billion-dollar program properly explained to us and to be able to hear from the minister about it.

The Chair Liberal Shannon Miedema

Thank you, Mr. Bonin.

Mr. St‑Pierre, the floor is yours.

Eric St-Pierre Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

Can we suspend the meeting for a few minutes?

Could we suspend for a few minutes to look at the wording of the motion? Could you send that to us by email very quickly?

The Chair Liberal Shannon Miedema

We can do that.

The Chair Liberal Shannon Miedema

We're going to keep going here, folks.

I'd like to first welcome the witnesses here in person and online. We will be getting to you shortly as we resume our study on home energy efficiency. We're going to work through a motion for a few minutes first.

Go ahead, Mr. Grant.

Wade Grant Liberal Vancouver Quadra, BC

I want to welcome the other witnesses.

Also, I want to say that, look, we are here. We've heard from the opposition all day about affordability. We want to talk about affordability. I think they're here to talk about affordability. We can see the minister for sure in the future. I think this is something that can be done in committee business.

I want to move that we adjourn debate on this.

(Motion agreed to)

The Chair Liberal Shannon Miedema

Thank you. That matter is resolved.

This afternoon, we have with us Mr. Art Hunter, scientist, appearing as an individual. We have Mr. Kevin Larmer, senior director, policy, government relations and communications, Canadian Gas Association. Online we have Jean-Pierre Finet, analyst, from Regroupement des organismes environnementaux en énergie.

Welcome to everybody this afternoon. You will all have five minutes to give opening testimony. I have a little card to remind you when your time is up.

I will begin with Mr. Hunter.

The floor is yours for five minutes.

Art Hunter Scientist, As an Individual

Thank you very much.

I'm going to present to you a technical presentation because I am a scientist and an engineer. I'm certainly not involved with policies and the implementation of those policies.

I did a retrofit on my house. In the process, I have delivered tours for those folks who are interested in seeing how all of the equipment works. I have delivered over 400 of those to groups of up to about six people. In the past, I had a consulting engineering firm, where I worked primarily with homeowners to encourage them to access incentive grants and any R and D tax credits available for them to go and convert their houses to become more energy-efficient.

Of course, we all know that electricity is required and used in every second of your life for your entire lifetime. It's supported by the world’s largest and most expensive machine, which we call the electrical grid. We have a variety of rates for each kilowatt hour; these depend on the time of day. In Ontario, we have ultra-low overnight rates, which means you can save a lot of money if you can shift your energy consumption to after hours. In fact, that's where—to do so—you need a home battery.

The big shift that can transform and modernize Canada's energy sector includes solar energy, windmills, geothermal, battery storage, electric vehicles and, of course—the big one—heat pumps, either air-source or ground-source heat pumps.

My retrofitted home interacts with the grid. It, of course, produces environmental benefits, greenhouse gas reductions and economic benefits—clearly, to save money—as well as social benefits, which give one some independence. With my house, I can island myself from the grid, so the grid can't see me, and I can't see the grid. This is very useful when there are outages. Everyone else is struggling with whatever means they have, whereas I have this automated.... Often, I don't even know that an outage has occurred.

My journey included retrofitting an existing home. I replaced the windows and doors—the windows to triple-glazed and argon-filled, with double-low emissivity—and, of course, paid great attention to ceiling air leaks in the home. I added up to R16 in the attic. I have three Tesla-powered well batteries in my basement—lithium-ion batteries. I also have 7.5 kilowatts of rooftop solar panels, as well as a ground-source heat pump.

This has provided sustainable energy collection, equity, public health—no GHGs—a reliable supply, resilience and, of course, power quality protection. This gives me preparedness and peace of mind. All of these are quite difficult or even impossible to put a dollar value on.

Now, this system is compliant with indigenous principles of education and action—over seven generations in terms of sustainability and with an eye to looking at future generations and stewardship in terms of one wanting to be a responsible steward of the land and resources. This leads to impactful decision-making. Every decision made today should be evaluated based on its potential impact on future generations.

Also—

The Chair Liberal Shannon Miedema

Mr. Hunter, could you please wrap up?

5:05 p.m.

Scientist, As an Individual

Art Hunter

Okay.

It's important to take a holistic approach.

That should do. I'm certainly open to questions.