Environment Committee on Oct. 2nd, 2025

[Caroline Brouillette]

Thank you for asking that question.

It actually turns out that fossil fuels were driving the major inflation crisis that we saw from 2022 to 2024. In fact, economist Jim Stanford calculated that, on average, this fossil fuel-driven inflation cost $12,000 per Canadian household.

I think we have to really grapple with the fact that the affordability crisis that Canadians are facing right now intersects with the very real climate impacts. The thousands of Canadians who were evacuated from their communities—

[Branden Leslie, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Thank you, Ms. Brouillette. I was hoping for a more focused response.

[Wade Grant, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

I have a point of order.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Ellis Ross]

Go ahead on a point of order.

[Wade Grant, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

I was listening intently to what the witness said. I would like to allow the witnesses to finish their thoughts before interruption, if that's okay.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Ellis Ross]

I don't think that's a point of order. I think it's up to the members to determine their own time with their questions and answers. We'll return to the questions and answers from the member.

Mr. Leslie.

[Branden Leslie, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Sometimes I answer the question that I wish I was asked, too.

I'll move to Mr. Mousseau.

Do you have any faith that this government is going to meet its current targets for 2030 or 2035?

[Normand Mousseau]

No, it's not currently possible to meet the targets, because we haven't implemented the necessary changes. Building the electricity grid, for example, is going to take years, and it must be done quickly. We also need to decarbonize sectors. I would say that's essentially the problem. In recent years, we have not put any meaningful measures in place either in transformation or in the creation of a support industry. Such measures would make it possible to increase the positive impacts and economic benefits.

That said, not going in that direction is playing the same hand as South American countries when they failed to modernize at the beginning of the 20th century. They retained approaches from the previous century, from the 19th century, and their activities have faltered.

Canada is not immune to such a situation if it maintains technologies and energies that are not those of the 21st century.

[Branden Leslie, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Thank you.

I could see us going down the path of Venezuela. I fully agree.

I took note that this government has announced plans for a carbon competitiveness strategy. The reason it would unveil something like that seems to only lead to the understanding that we have become less competitive.

I'll ask you a similar question, which relates to the connection between economic policy and environmental policy.

While you say that the environmental policies over the last 10 years have failed, and I agree with you, have they also led to terrible economic outcomes for Canadians across this country, and in turn we need a competitiveness strategy to try to get back on track?

[Normand Mousseau]

Yes, Canada has to do so because it has not modernized. For example, the cars we will produce in Canada are less and less attractive to the rest of the world. We don't have the technologies to export. There's no electrification or transformation in our heating systems industry, and that explains why Canada is less competitive.

I agree with you on that.

[Branden Leslie, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

What are your general thoughts on this government's current announcements regarding the removal of the consumer carbon tax and the impact it may have on the achievement of our intended reduction targets, as well as their floating the idea of the emissions cap being removed or altered?

[Normand Mousseau]

On the carbon tax, it's not a disaster, in the sense that we can offset the absence of such a tax with other measures to lower the cost of clean technology. In a nutshell, that's what these measures are about. For example, if we let Chinese vehicles in, or if we had Chinese vehicles built in Canada, we could have lower prices, which would bring us back to the same context of moving things forward.

In fact, a number of technologies exist, and we can also develop strategies.

[Branden Leslie, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

I have a quick question.

China has been mentioned a lot here. There seems to be a lot of admiration for the work that China is doing to allegedly lower emissions.

Are there any other reasons that China might be trying to get off western oil and gas that are not related to the climate, given that it is still building, on average, two coal power plants a week?

[Normand Mousseau]

The Chinese are still reducing their GHG emissions and, above all, they are in the process of controlling the intellectual property of clean technologies.

While we stand by and watch, they are developing technologies. We're already seeing it with electric cars—we're unable to produce electric vehicles of the same quality as Chinese vehicles.

That's a problem. We're talking about a country that, only a few years ago, was still copying our ways of doing things.

[Branden Leslie, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

[Inaudible—Editor] slave labour.

[Normand Mousseau]

In fact, you should really go and see the factories there.

[Branden Leslie, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

What's the difference? How have the investments that this government has made helped enhance our EV market here in Canada, then?

[Normand Mousseau]

The factories there are not using workers. They are highly automated, at a level that Canada is unable to achieve. There are real competitiveness issues.

That said, the transformation is also achieved by integrating artificial intelligence and communication technologies.

It is essentially the creation of tomorrow's economy that we are leaving to a country that, a few short years ago, had to copy everything we were doing in order to develop.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Ellis Ross]

I'll intervene here.

Thank you for that line of questioning.

Mr. Leslie, I did give you extra time, given all of the interruptions regarding our translation.

We will now go to the Liberal Party. We will start with Mr. Wade Grant.

[Wade Grant, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the three of you for being here today and for providing your testimony.

I'll start with Mr. Donner.

Thank you for acknowledging the territory where I come from, the Musqueam nation, where my son and my daughter are currently. For me, this is a very important topic for them, with my son going into university next year and entering the workforce very soon, but it's also important for them and their future.

Are you able to expand on why industrial carbon pricing is essential if Canada is to both protect the environment and move forward as an energy superpower?

[Simon Donner]

Thank you for the comments.

The industrial carbon pricing system basically—

[Patrick Bonin, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Ellis Ross]

We're going to check on the audio.

Let's do a test. Please continue. Let's see if our interpretation—

[Simon Donner]

Okay. I will continue.

We've been doing research together with the Canadian Climate Institute. One of the things that becomes clear is that the industrial pricing system could be the workhorse of Canada's climate policy in terms of delivering the most substantial emissions reductions.

The most important thing about the industrial pricing system is also that it can help you set up for the economy of the future, because it encourages companies and industries to invest in, first of all, technologies that can then help to reduce emissions, and it also helps by investing in new areas of growth, new areas of clean technology, that are just lower emitting in practice.

There are lot of examples where, through the industrial pricing system, you could incentivize. It will especially incentivize businesses and industries in Canada to develop technologies that include carbon capture and storage and that are marketable outside of Canada.

[Wade Grant, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Mousseau, are you able to highlight the kinds of investments in job creation that we've already seen as a direct result of industrial carbon pricing?