Environment Committee on Oct. 23rd, 2025

[The Chair, Liberal, Angelo Iacono]

Thank you, Ms. Doran.

We'll now go to Mr. Leslie for five minutes.

[Branden Leslie, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My questions will be for Mr. Brossard and Mr. Giguère.

A previous Montreal Economic Institute report called the Liberals' net zero by 2050 target “economic nonsense”.

I'm hoping you can unpack a statement like that a bit and walk us through exactly the reasons you would say that.

[Renaud Brossard]

Absolutely. Thank you for the question.

I think a good part of it comes from some of the things we talked about in our presentation. If we look at things like the EV mandate, for instance, Canadians are very clear. We polled Canadians on this. They see it as unrealistic to impose the sale of only electric vehicles by 2035.

Part of the reason is our electric infrastructure. If we want to impose something like this, we're going to need a lot of new generating capacity. Some estimates say it's between 7.5% and 15.3% of extra generating capacity.

Generating capacity is not the only thing. We also need more transportation capacity to get it from the generating stations to people's homes. We also need an upgraded electric network. According to some estimates, this could cost $294 billion.

Now, I don't know about you, but the last time I looked at the federal budget, I didn't see a $294-billion pot of money lying around. I don't see that at the provincial level, either. This is going to be an important cost that will be borne by electricity consumers in this country in every single province as that shift happens. That's why we say it's “economic nonsense”.

There are a variety of other things. I think the emissions cap is another one where we're cutting ourselves off from a lot of very good-paying jobs with very little effect—actually, with no effect—on global demand for these energies. Essentially, it's as if we were simply exporting well-paying jobs to other countries that don't want to legislate the industry out of existence.

I could go on, but those are some of the most salient examples.

[Branden Leslie, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

I will circle back on that massive $294 billion number.

As part of that plus more, do you have any indication or do you believe that the federal Liberals have ever costed out the total amount of money it would take to actually achieve net zero by 2050?

[Gabriel Giguère]

I don't think so, actually. One of the big problems with the EV mandate or phasing out gas-powered vehicles is that the government has moved forward with these types of regulations. However, we have no idea how feasible they are in all of the provinces.

We know that some provinces such as Alberta and others rely heavily on certain types of energy, and that also interferes with other federal regulations. If you have something like the EV sales mandate that's going to drive up production, but you have the clean electricity regulations at the same time that require you to change the energy mix for electricity in your province, let's be very clear: You end up with unintended consequences and unrealistic policies.

We have to be careful. It's hugely expensive. The marginal cost of producing a kilowatt of electricity is much more expensive than it used to be. For example, in Quebec, we paid an average of 2 cents or 3 cents per kilowatt, whereas today, we pay about 11 cents or 12 cents when we add transportation and distribution. We have to be careful with this type of policy because, at the end of the day, it's Canadian and Quebec consumers who will pay.

[Branden Leslie, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Yes, thank you for that.

In my view, the Liberals need to be much more up front about the increased cost to Canadians of implementing all these ideas, like those impending clean energy regulations that you mentioned.

I believe we need to increase our capacity. Certainly, in Manitoba, we are going to be at capacity very soon, and we need to increase our electricity generation through a variety of types of energy.

The combination of those impending clean energy regulations plus, as you say, $294 billion to ensure we have full EV usage across this country, I have no idea.... That's almost 10% of our entire GDP. How are utility companies or provincial or federal governments ever supposed to pay for that? Most importantly, for the Canadians who are struggling right now, how are we ever supposed to pay for that?

[Gabriel Giguère]

This is one of the major problems. Since the marginal cost of production is higher, consumers will pay for this increase in production, which, it must be said, is partly artificial. The government says it will force Canadians to buy new electric vehicles, but, when asked, most Canadians say they don't want this regulation. Two out of three Canadians tell us that the regulation is not realistic.

More fundamentally, electricity demand in Manitoba is exploding. The same is true in Quebec, British Columbia and Ontario. Not only is this increase artificial, but there is also an opportunity cost. If electricity is used in a way Canadians do not want, that's a problem because we would be giving up economic development opportunities. In Quebec, several projects have been rejected. The same thing is likely to happen in other Canadian provinces, and Canadian and Quebec workers will suffer as a result.

[The Chair, Liberal, Angelo Iacono]

Thank you, Mr. Giguère.

Mr. St‑Pierre, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Eric St-Pierre, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Doran, the organization you represent, Clean Energy Canada, is serving as secretary to the One Canadian Clean Economy Task Force. Can you explain what that task force does?

[Rachel Doran]

We're working right now with a task force of organizations across the clean energy transition. This includes forest products, clean technologies, the renewable energy being built across our country, battery metals and electric mobility.

One of the things that are really important to recognize is that the clean economy has, until now, been a sector that is maybe divergent across what are more traditional sectors, but it is growing. It's emerging, and there are a lot of parallel interests. I know that there will be other organizations you're speaking with today that are working with companies and workers across this new clean sector. It really is playing a growing role in where our Canadian economy and sectors are moving.

[Eric St-Pierre, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Clean Energy Canada produced a report entitled, “The World Next Door”. Can you provide a copy of that report to our committee?

Can you tell me about the opportunities that would be created by building a Canadian clean economy?

[Rachel Doran]

I'd be happy to provide a copy of the report to the committee.

We started this report looking at the opportunities across the global landscape. That's where we found, looking at Canada's non-U.S. trade partners, that all of them had a net-zero commitment, and all of them had carbon pricing systems. Half were looking at Carbon Warrior-adjusted mechanisms and EV sales requirements. We really needed to start thinking about where the opportunities are that may lie ahead for Canada.

That's where things like clean electricity generation and transmission, critical minerals, EVs and batteries, low-carbon heavy industry, and sustainable and value-added agriculture and forest products are what allies are going to be wanting more of as they start looking for these low-carbon imports. These are places where Canada can really be looking at how we make sure our products are the things that the world is going to want more of.

[Eric St-Pierre, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Clean Energy Canada is based in British Columbia, I believe. Can you talk to us about British Columbia's 2030 targets? Is it on track to achieve them?

[Rachel Doran]

British Columbia has had an important climate plan for nearly a decade now, CleanBC. It has made a lot of progress toward its own emissions reductions goals. We can see, in a space like electric vehicles, which the committee has heard a lot about here this morning, the importance of regulation in helping numbers drive up.

Quebec and British Columbia have been leaders in electric vehicle adoption across the country because of the strong policy foundation that's existed for a number of years, including regulations like the federal EV sales availability standard, as well as rebates and supports.

With robust policies, we have seen progress in action. That isn't to say that British Columbia, like the rest of Canada, isn't also looking at new ways it could be making sure that there could be tangible progress and value to citizens, and that the policies are the best to produce tangible results for British Columbians, but it can be seen as a success story over the past several years in terms of what robust supports can accomplish.

[Eric St-Pierre, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Alberta is British Columbia's neighbour. Can you comment on Alberta's moratorium on renewable energy? Is it good public policy?

[Rachel Doran]

This is another example of the importance of not letting policy stand in the way of economics. Alberta was a leader in securing renewable energy investment across Canada and was seeing a booming industry until the moratorium on renewable energy development was put into place.

We are all looking, these days particularly, for ways for Canada to remain competitive on the global stage to ensure that investment is coming here to Canada. To find ways to restrict that instead of promoting it is concerning, because we really should be looking for these things that the world wants more of, and renewable energy development, for all of the reasons I previously suggested, is one of those.

[Eric St-Pierre, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Mr. Brossard, according to the Montreal Economic Institute's website, one eighth of its funding comes from oil and gas companies.

Can you send the committee the list of donors for the past five years? Can you tell us which oil companies fund the institute?

[Renaud Brossard]

The Montreal Economic Institute is proud to be supported by a large number of Canadian organizations. Three quarters of our funding comes from large foundations. We prefer not to disclose the list to ensure that questions are directed to us, not our donors.

[The Chair, Liberal, Angelo Iacono]

I'm sorry to interrupt you, Mr. Brossard.

Mr. St‑Pierre, your time is up.

Mr. Bonin, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Patrick Bonin, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Mr. Chair, my colleague asked the Montreal Economic Institute to disclose its funding sources. The response wasn't clear, so would it be possible to ask for that again?

[The Chair, Liberal, Angelo Iacono]

Mr. Brossard, can you respond to that request?

[Renaud Brossard]

Sorry, I didn't understand the question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Angelo Iacono]

Mr. Bonin, can you repeat the question?

[Patrick Bonin, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

My hon. colleague asked you to produce the institute's list of donors for the past five years. Can you produce that list, specifically the list of oil and gas companies?

[Renaud Brossard]

As I said, the Montreal Economic Institute is proud to be supported by a large number of Canadian organizations in a variety of sectors, and three quarters of our funding comes from foundations. However, we do not reveal the identity of our donors because we want these types of questions to be directed to us, not to them.